Instrument Training at night? Good Idea or not?

I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
Instrument.

I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
PPSEL, but not while IFR.

So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

wrote:
I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
Instrument.

I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
PPSEL, but not while IFR.

So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?



I did most of my IFR training at night. As long as the weather is clear
and you have a proficient instructor, the risk is small.

I love flying at night. In fact, night flying is why I got my IFR
ticket to begin with. It is a lot harder to spot clouds over rural
areas at night.

You may be laughing at my "proficient instructor" comment, but there are
a lot of instructors out there who are not proficient at real IFR
flying. Ask your potential instructor if he will do training in actual
IFR conditions. If he says no, then I wouldn't use him. I would
recommend getting some actual IMC during your training. There is a huge
difference between you wearing foggles and being in actual IMC.

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night?

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night?

There is a small increased risk in any night flying. The main thing is an
engine failure and the inability to find a safe landing spot as easily as
during the day. IFR training in VFR conditions carries no additional risk
IMO other than the increased risk of any night flying.

If the area you fly in has a reasonable amount of ground light, night flying
is rewarding and pleasurable. The night landing robs you of a bit of depth
perception and you might have a few hard landings until you get the hang of
it.

If you are in mountainous or sloping terrain or in an area were there is
little ground light be aware of the usual optical illusions (black hole,
false horizon, spatial disorientation, etc). Personally, I don't like
landing at an unfamiliar airport at night unless there is glide slope
indication of some sort (ILS, VASI, PAPI).

Learn to fly at night and become proficient. Passengers love to fly with
you at night for the smooth air and great view. Once you're comfortable you
will fly much less during the day.

Kobra

wrote in message
oups.com...
What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
Instrument.
So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

The main thing with flying at night in a single-engine aircraft is that life
is less encouraging when it comes to engine failures. This said, though, I
can't see that it's really more risky flying on a nice, clear night than,
say, flying single-engine in daytime IMC with a low cloud base.

The main thing to be sure of is that your instructor is experienced and
extremely competent with night flying. Again, no surprises here - if you're
doing an IMC course in real IMC you'd want your instructor to have loads of
experience. The trick is to be confident that (a) they're sharp enough to
stop you getting into trouble; and (b) if, by some misfortune, they were
looking at the map while you got yourself into an inverted, screaming
descent, they'll be able to get you out of it.

I was fortunate in that my IMC instructors were both several-thousand-hours
ex-commercial pilots who had thousands of hours of hands-on IMC between them
(i.e. none of this namby-pamby auto-land stuff for the ex- Hunter and Fokker
50 pilot, and lots of nice North Sea weather for the helicopter captain :-)
Sadly I can only fly at night with an instructor because the CAA thinks I'm
too colour-blind, but it's immense fun and the views are awesome.

D.

wrote:
: I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
: during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

: What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
: don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
: However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
: Instrument.

: I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
: PPSEL, but not while IFR.

: So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
: risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

I won't reiterate what others have said regarding night flying and instrument
instructor proficiency. When I got my rating, I was adament about getting some actual
IMC time. I waited for "good bad weather" to do my cross-country training flights
for my instrument training. Something like 800-1000' overcast, stable stratus, no
icing or CB's, and good vis below.

As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
overloaded head.

On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
references."

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

wrote in message
oups.com...
I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
Instrument.

I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
PPSEL, but not while IFR.

So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

As an instrument instructor, I prefer teaching instruments at night. Here's
why:
1) It's more realistic to simulate instrument conditions in VMC at night.
2) Most airports seem to be less busy so busting into the pattern from a
practice approach is less problematic.
3) In my area, ATC tends to be less busy so controllers tend to be more
patient with my students
4) The air is smoother (although sometimes its *too* smooth)
5) the night environment forces good cockpit management habits. Fishing
around for a chart is harder at night when they all look alike in the dark.

There are challenges and risks though...
1) I tend not to do aggressive unusual attitudes or stalls at night. At
night a stall is an instrument manuever for both the student and the
instructor, especially on a dark night with no moon.
2) Some fields do not allow practice approachs later in the evening. My
local class C doesn't allow them after 10pm, presumably for noise abatement.
3) Airports services are less likely to be available...locked FBOs, no fuel
truck, empty vending machines, etc.
4) Greater potential for ground fog...must watch the temperature dewpoint
spread.
5) less options available for forced or precautionary landings. Highways and
parking lots become viable options.
6) night generally occurs at the end of the day, so stress and rest are
factors for both the student and the instructor. An IMSAFE audit is real
important.

I will fly in IMC at night in a single provided:
1) I am familiar with the aircraft. While engine failure can occur anytime
to any engine, the probability is much less on a well maintained aircraft.
2) We are over flat terrain. I will fly over mountains (east coast
mountains, that is) at night in VMC provided we have enough visibility,
altitude and options below us (i.e. valleys, highways, etc.)
3) We have a GPS with an independent electrical source. This is my rule for
day IMC as well.

Kobra wrote:
What are your thoughts on instrument training at night?
There is a small increased risk in any night flying. The main thing is an
engine failure and the inability to find a safe landing spot as easily as
during the day. IFR training in VFR conditions carries no additional risk
IMO other than the increased risk of any night flying.

Definitely correct on all accounts including the stuff I deleted.
I did much of my IFR training at night and about 25% of my
200 hours is at night. I am actually fairly comfortable at night
and almost wonder why people are so scared of it (noting the additional
risks listed above). With foggles, it is a
great substitute for IMC. It is also more challenging which
is good as you have the CFII to fall back on. Same thing for
getting night experience with the experience of the CFII on board.
I highly recommend it.

Gerald

Jimmy B. wrote:

I would
recommend getting some actual IMC during your training. There is a huge
difference between you wearing foggles and being in actual IMC.

I would have to concur *strongly*. You don't want your first experience
in actual to with your family in the plane.

In my training, I never experienced any vertigo or disorientation with
the foggles on, but I still experience it to this day in actual. I
learned very quickly to ignore it and trust my instruments.
Fortunately, my first experience in actual was while I was still
training. To make it extra special, it was at night and we departed
with ceilings about 700' AGL. We entered IMC in a climbing left turn
that quickly turned into a descending left turn. Had I not been with an
experienced instructor, I may not have been able to recover as I
wouldn't have realized the problem until I broke out again at 700' in a
1,000 - 1,500 fpm spiral dive. As it was, my instructor made a comment
like "are you going to correct that?" and immediately I realized the
situation and corrected it.

Which is the other thing. You need to have an instructor that is
confident enough and experienced enough to let you get into trouble and
let you get out of it again. If your instructor takes control every
time you get into trouble, you won't learn much. Recognizing that you
are in an unusual attitude and then recovering is, in my mind, the most
important skill in instrument flying. Being able to keep the needles
exactly centered or flying a perfectly wind corrected hold is nice for
showing off, but you have room for error in those operations. You don't
have to fly them with autopilot precision. On the other hand,
recognizing that you're entering a descending left turn instead of the
climbing right turn that you intended or that from straight and level
you have somehow managed to get into an increasingly steep climbing turn
is far more useful. You don't get to learn this properly under the
hood. It takes the real thing to truly learn it. If your instructor
won't do it or your instructor takes control too quickly, you are
missing out on training that could save your life one day.


-m
--
## Mark T. Dame
## VP, Product Development
## MFM Software, Inc. (http://www.mfm.com/)
"I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer."
-- Star Trek: Dr. McCoy, "The Devil In The Dark"

I did half of my IFR training at night. If it is VFR go for it. I do not
recommend training in actual at night. Flying IMC at night is some of
the hardest flying you will do especially if there is turbulence.
Michelle

wrote:

I am getting ready to start of Instrument training. I plan on training
during the day on the weekends and 1 or 2 nights during the week.

What are your thoughts on instrument training at night? Personally I
don't fly at night and have only for what was required for my PPSEL.
However my goal is to go on to my Commerical and CFI after the
Instrument.

I know I will have to get proficient at night flying to teach the
PPSEL, but not while IFR.

So, I guess my question comes down to added risk. How much additional
risk am I taking by doing some of my Instrument at night?

wrote:

As far as instrument training at night, there are good things and bad things.
The only real bad thing is it may be more difficult to read charts and such over dim
and/or colored cockpit lighting. If you're still still learning the intricacies of
reading IFR charts and plates, that can add a bit of congestion to your already
overloaded head.

Yes, I started IFR training in the winter of last year and did a lot of
basic manuevers and chartless approaches (talked through it by the
instructor) at night. By the time I was doing aproaches and flying
with charts, it was light at my usual training time. Now that it's
gettting dark earlier, I'm surprised at how hard it is to put together
two things I did well independently (maneuver at night under foggles +
use charts).

On the plus side, lots of the subtle visual cues that you get while wearing
foggles aren't there. The small peripheral vision leaks out the side of the foggles,
the sun changing angles on the instrument panels, etc.... those are pretty much gone
at night. You'll have a more realistic environment to train for true "lack of outside
references."

I disagree with this. When at night under the foggles, when you fly
over towns or cities, the glow from the ground is really noticeable in
your peripherial vision. Because of this I feel like at night I'm
actually getting more visual cues than I should when under the foggles.

IMO the best VFR conditions for hood training are hazy southeastern
afternoons.