Circle to Land @ KRBG

Al wrote:

At our home field, KRBG, Roseburg, Oregon, we use left traffic for both ends
of our RWY 34-16. The approach procedures cite "Circling east of the rwy
34-16 centerline not authorized". What do I do when I break out, and have
to "circle west of the centerline for RWY 16", while VFR traffic is flying
the normal left traffic(east of centerline) for RWY16?

Al


If the weather is VFR you are well-advised to take this into
consideration at an uncontrolled airport. If feasible you should stop
descent at pattern altitude and join the established VFR traffic pattern.

If the weather is below VFR then you are *required* to adhere to the
IAP's requirements as to circle-to-land.

Thanks for your comments, let me amend the original post.

The conditions that brought this up we

1500' ovc, 5 miles, wind 160 @ 15 gusting to 20 Rainshowers & Terrain all
quadrants.

The aircraft was a 90 series King Air on a GPS-B approach

Seattle Center on the #1 comm, and lost comm due to terrain below 3000msl.

Unicom on the #2 comm, and listening to VFR traffic from 4 airports while
above 2500', and 2 airports(Roseburg & Felt) when below 2500msl.

To cancel IFR, it is either by phone on the ground, or by RCO to FSS.
Obviously no radar.

The King air broke out about 2 south of the airport, with a touch and go
C-172(with a bad radio), & an RV6 in left traffic for 16.

The King air driver said he was unable to cancel, and felt obligated to
comply with the published procedure.
He also said that due to rainshowers, he was unable to keep the traffic in
sight.

Class "E" airspace starts at 700' AGL over the airport & conditions were
VFR.




Jim Mackin said: "There are no instrument approaches in Class G" and for the
most part I agree. In this case you are in class E until below 700' agl.
However, even there you are still operating under IFR. You do not need to
maintain the required VFR cloud clearance, and you may operate at less than
3 miles. At the same time, you are mixing with VFR traffic.


Steven P. McNicoll said "See and avoid them.", and I wholeheartedly agree,
with the caveat, "if you can".


Al CFIAMI





"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:0Xt%f.14252$bm6.10450@fed1read04...
Al wrote:

At our home field, KRBG, Roseburg, Oregon, we use left traffic for both
ends of our RWY 34-16. The approach procedures cite "Circling east of the
rwy 34-16 centerline not authorized". What do I do when I break out, and
have to "circle west of the centerline for RWY 16", while VFR traffic is
flying the normal left traffic(east of centerline) for RWY16?

Al


If the weather is VFR you are well-advised to take this into consideration
at an uncontrolled airport. If feasible you should stop descent at
pattern altitude and join the established VFR traffic pattern.

If the weather is below VFR then you are *required* to adhere to the IAP's
requirements as to circle-to-land.

Yes, and I will stand by the statement, there are no IAP in
Class G, by definition of the airspace. There are IAP that
penetrate Class G at 1200 or 700 ft AGL.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:G%j%f.3074$8q.2429@dukeread08...
|
| Instrument approaches are published for Class B,C,D and
E
| airspace. An instrument approach requires controlled
| airspace and traffic separation. Class G is
uncontrolled
| and although there may be a Class G airport, the
instrument
| approach is conducted in the Class E over laid above the
| Class G.
|
|
| Many of them are also conducted in Class G airspace. Do
you hold an
| instrument rating?
|
|

You can always request a contact approach and fly any
altitude and path including the normal VFR pattern and still
be "on an IFR clearance." If you are working for an
operator who does not allow cancellation of IFR, then it is
up to the PIC to determine the method required to comply
with IAP and VFR traffic pattern. Read about a "contact
approach" and if you're making an approach that will require
circling, and there is VFR traffic, advise ATC that you will
be requesting a contact approach when you at in VMC
conditions.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in
message
ink.net...
|
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:Eje%f.3046$8q.2907@dukeread08...
|
| If you're practicing in VMC, then you should break off
the
| approach and join a normal pattern.
|
|
| That may not be an option.
|
|

Transition areas at 700 feet, that means that VFR traffic
may be below a ceiling, true. But IAP are begun and
conducted in Class E (or higher) airspace. If a pilot is
not allowed by some company ops manual to cancel IFR [that
would not be an FAA approved 135 manual, 135 does require a
flight plan-VFR or IFR or other flight locating procedure].
If approaching an airport that is Class G at the surface,
use a back-up radio to monitor CTAF and you can expect ATC
to issue a clearance like this... Cleared for the approach,
frequency change approved to CTAF, report cancellation
[exact phraseology will vary].


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Sam Spade" wrote in message
news:bTt%f.14159$bm6.11550@fed1read04...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| Instrument approaches are published for Class B,C,D and
E
| airspace. An instrument approach requires controlled
| airspace and traffic separation. Class G is
uncontrolled
| and although there may be a Class G airport, the
instrument
| approach is conducted in the Class E over laid above the
| Class G.
|
|
| At uncontrolled airports instrument approaches are
typically not
| contained entirely within controlled airspace. Check some
of them out
| against a sectional and that will become apparent.
|
| Where the feds considered it essential to have the entire
procedure
| contained within controlled airspace, they establish a
Class E surface
| area. Class E surface areas are unusual.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:BNv%f.3146$8q.678@dukeread08...

Yes, and I will stand by the statement, there are no IAP in
Class G, by definition of the airspace. There are IAP that
penetrate Class G at 1200 or 700 ft AGL.


There is nothing in the definition of Class G airspace that prevents having
IAPs in it. You cannot stand by your previous statement, "There are no
instrument approaches in Class G" airspace, and now acknowledge that there
are instrument approaches in Class G airspace.

Your knowledge level is far below what would be expected from someone with
the experience and ratings you claim to have. I think you're a fibber.

"Jim Macklin" wrote in message
news:4Tv%f.3147$8q.416@dukeread08...

You can always request a contact approach and fly any
altitude and path including the normal VFR pattern and still
be "on an IFR clearance." If you are working for an
operator who does not allow cancellation of IFR, then it is
up to the PIC to determine the method required to comply
with IAP and VFR traffic pattern. Read about a "contact
approach" and if you're making an approach that will require
circling, and there is VFR traffic, advise ATC that you will
be requesting a contact approach when you at in VMC
conditions.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


5-4-23. Contact Approach

a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan, provided they are
clear of clouds and have at least 1 mile flight visibility and can
reasonably expect to continue to the destination airport in those
conditions, may request ATC authorization for a contact approach.

As I mentioned in the amendment to the OP, the King Air broke out at
2000msl, and from there had no comm with center. I think he was stuck with
the approach he was cleared for.



Al

The pilot may have been unfamiliar with uncontrolled
airports and contact approaches. Part 135 requires that an
active flight plan [ or other flight locating procedure] for
passenger carrying flights. A King Air 90 will normally fly
the approach at 120-140 KIAS, but can slow to 100 KIAS or
even a little less at light weights. The pilot should
inquire about alternate communications procedures at such
airports and switch to CTAF as soon as possible to announce
position and help with joining the pattern. The pilot could
advise ATC that the GPS approach would be flown into VMC and
then the approach would be complete as a contact approach,
which puts the flight path and altitudes at pilot's
discretion.

This is a high work-load for a single-pilot.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.





"Al" wrote in message
...
| Thanks for your comments, let me amend the original
post.
|
| The conditions that brought this up we
|
| 1500' ovc, 5 miles, wind 160 @ 15 gusting to 20
Rainshowers & Terrain all
| quadrants.
|
| The aircraft was a 90 series King Air on a GPS-B approach
|
| Seattle Center on the #1 comm, and lost comm due to
terrain below 3000msl.
|
| Unicom on the #2 comm, and listening to VFR traffic from 4
airports while
| above 2500', and 2 airports(Roseburg & Felt) when below
2500msl.
|
| To cancel IFR, it is either by phone on the ground, or by
RCO to FSS.
| Obviously no radar.
|
| The King air broke out about 2 south of the airport, with
a touch and go
| C-172(with a bad radio), & an RV6 in left traffic for 16.
|
| The King air driver said he was unable to cancel, and felt
obligated to
| comply with the published procedure.
| He also said that due to rainshowers, he was unable to
keep the traffic in
| sight.
|
| Class "E" airspace starts at 700' AGL over the airport &
conditions were
| VFR.
|
|
|
|
| Jim Mackin said: "There are no instrument approaches in
Class G" and for the
| most part I agree. In this case you are in class E until
below 700' agl.
| However, even there you are still operating under IFR. You
do not need to
| maintain the required VFR cloud clearance, and you may
operate at less than
| 3 miles. At the same time, you are mixing with VFR
traffic.
|
|
| Steven P. McNicoll said "See and avoid them.", and I
wholeheartedly agree,
| with the caveat, "if you can".
|
|
| Al CFIAMI
|
|
|
|
|
| "Sam Spade" wrote in message
| news:0Xt%f.14252$bm6.10450@fed1read04...
| Al wrote:
|
| At our home field, KRBG, Roseburg, Oregon, we use left
traffic for both
| ends of our RWY 34-16. The approach procedures cite
"Circling east of the
| rwy 34-16 centerline not authorized". What do I do
when I break out, and
| have to "circle west of the centerline for RWY 16",
while VFR traffic is
| flying the normal left traffic(east of centerline) for
RWY16?
|
| Al
|
|
| If the weather is VFR you are well-advised to take this
into consideration
| at an uncontrolled airport. If feasible you should stop
descent at
| pattern altitude and join the established VFR traffic
pattern.
|
| If the weather is below VFR then you are *required* to
adhere to the IAP's
| requirements as to circle-to-land.
|
|

Al wrote:

Thanks for your comments, let me amend the original post.

The conditions that brought this up we

1500' ovc, 5 miles, wind 160 @ 15 gusting to 20 Rainshowers & Terrain all
quadrants.

The aircraft was a 90 series King Air on a GPS-B approach

Seattle Center on the #1 comm, and lost comm due to terrain below 3000msl.

Unicom on the #2 comm, and listening to VFR traffic from 4 airports while
above 2500', and 2 airports(Roseburg & Felt) when below 2500msl.

To cancel IFR, it is either by phone on the ground, or by RCO to FSS.
Obviously no radar.

The King air broke out about 2 south of the airport, with a touch and go
C-172(with a bad radio), & an RV6 in left traffic for 16.

The King air driver said he was unable to cancel, and felt obligated to
comply with the published procedure.
He also said that due to rainshowers, he was unable to keep the traffic in
sight.

Class "E" airspace starts at 700' AGL over the airport & conditions were
VFR.

If the pilot cannot talk with ATC at an uncontrolled airport, and the
weather is VFR, even with the conditions you cited the pilot would be
well advised to enter the normal traffic pattern if it was safe to do
so. ATC couldn't care less. All they are looking for at this point is
a cancellation (when able) or report of a missed approach.

I note also that the chart shows a FSS frequency. The pilot could
cancel on that frequency and they have to accept the cancellation. Of
course, he has to inform them where he is and that is is IFR.

At a lot of locations like this the center tells the aircraft to report
on the ground or missing the approach to FSS. Apparently, the center
either doesn't have that procedure in place at this airport or the
controller felt it wasn't necessary. That, however, doesn't relieve the
pilot of the responsibility to establish relay communications through
the FSS when it is apparent that he can no longer communicate with the
center.

The "circle" can be done in many ways, the limitation on the
sector because of obstacle clearance not withstanding.

If the weather was as good as you say, there is no
prohibition on operating under IFR and VFR at the same time,
the approach clearance is a clearance to operate in the
protected airspace, just follow the IFR rules while in IMC
and when in VMC, fly safely.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Al" wrote in message
...
| "Jim Macklin" wrote
in message
| news:4Tv%f.3147$8q.416@dukeread08...
|
| You can always request a contact approach and fly any
| altitude and path including the normal VFR pattern and
still
| be "on an IFR clearance." If you are working for an
| operator who does not allow cancellation of IFR, then it
is
| up to the PIC to determine the method required to comply
| with IAP and VFR traffic pattern. Read about a "contact
| approach" and if you're making an approach that will
require
| circling, and there is VFR traffic, advise ATC that you
will
| be requesting a contact approach when you at in VMC
| conditions.
|
|
| --
| James H. Macklin
| ATP,CFI,A&P
|
|
| 5-4-23. Contact Approach
|
| a. Pilots operating in accordance with an IFR flight plan,
provided they are
| clear of clouds and have at least 1 mile flight visibility
and can
| reasonably expect to continue to the destination airport
in those
| conditions, may request ATC authorization for a contact
approach.
|
| As I mentioned in the amendment to the OP, the King Air
broke out at
| 2000msl, and from there had no comm with center. I think
he was stuck with
| the approach he was cleared for.
|
|
|
| Al
|
|