First Time Buyer. Help!

Here's the best advice you can receive;

1. Join the type club for the particular aircraft you're considering.
They'll be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of the units as well
as the performance specs of the various year models..

2. Get a prebuy done by a mechanic knowledgable in the model you're
considering.

3. See #2

4. See #2

5. See #2

Good luck


On 3 Apr 2004 05:09:51 -0800, (KayInPA)
wrote:

Hello,

I am seriously considering the purchase of an airplane and would like
to ask the group for potential dos and don'ts. I would so appreciate
any guidance, advice, or practical tips other pilots in this newsgroup
could offer. Also, to ask about any financial considerations that my
not be obvious to a first time owner.

If I decide to go forward, I'll be buying the airplane with a partner;
a friend of mine who is beginning his instrument studies. We are
looking in the $60k - $100k price range and prefer Cessnas because
we're training in 172s. However, if we find the right deal, other
manufacturers might also be considered.

Thanks so much in advance for any help you could give us.

On Sat, 03 Apr 2004 07:36:42 -0600, Stu Gotts
wrote:

Here's the best advice you can receive;

1. Join the type club for the particular aircraft you're considering.
They'll be able to tell you the do's and don'ts of the units as well
as the performance specs of the various year models..

Excellent! Thanks for this tip, it makes perfect sense.

2. Get a prebuy done by a mechanic knowledgable in the model you're
considering.

3. See #2

4. See #2

5. See #2


OK.

Good luck

--
Kay
Student Pilot
email: remove "ns" from "aviationns"









-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

Kay
Student Pilot

I would very much suggest you hold off on buying an airplane while you are a
student pilot. Get your private and then figure out what your typical
flying mission will be like. Many (most?) pilots find out that their
aviation goals and missions change once they get their private and start
flying for pleasure.

Even if your goal is to get your instrument rating, I am not sure it makes
sense to buy an airplane just for that goal. The cost of owning an airplane
is substantially more than the cost of an IFR rating, and one way airplane
owners often SUBSTANTIALLY increase their costs is by buying an airplane
which does not meet their needs and then trading up in 1-2 years.

You need to hold onto an airplane for 5+ years in order to make the
economics of maintenance somewhat realistic. Buying a 172 to complete your
IFR training -- only to realize you really need a 182 given the
distance/payload of your trips -- would be way way more expensive than
getting your IFR rating in a rental 172.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

I would have to disagree with you Richard.

I bought my plane at about 25 hours. I was incredibly bored with the planes
I was renting. The new plane was so much nicer to fly. I flew much more
often, and enjoyed it much more.

Also, if you buy a new plane, it can make sense to move up much sooner than
5 years because of depreciation rules. If you buy used, you can usually get
most of what you paid for the plane if not more (assuming you don't get
taken on the buy). So I really don't get your 5 year rule.

Now, if you figure you really need a 182 for your mission, and you are not
ready to own one, then it would make sense to rent a 172 until then.

On the other hand, if what you really want is an Archer, and it meets your
needs, then why wait?

A more important factor may be the time it takes to BE an airplane owner.
Imagine dealing with your car mechanic on nearly a monthly basis. You are
already taking time out of your schedule to learn to fly, it you buy a used
plane, you could be adding another part time job to your schedule.


"Richard Kaplan" wrote in message
s.com...

"KayInPA" wrote in message
...

Kay
Student Pilot

I would very much suggest you hold off on buying an airplane while you are
a
student pilot. Get your private and then figure out what your typical
flying mission will be like. Many (most?) pilots find out that their
aviation goals and missions change once they get their private and start
flying for pleasure.

Even if your goal is to get your instrument rating, I am not sure it makes
sense to buy an airplane just for that goal. The cost of owning an
airplane
is substantially more than the cost of an IFR rating, and one way airplane
owners often SUBSTANTIALLY increase their costs is by buying an airplane
which does not meet their needs and then trading up in 1-2 years.

You need to hold onto an airplane for 5+ years in order to make the
economics of maintenance somewhat realistic. Buying a 172 to complete
your
IFR training -- only to realize you really need a 182 given the
distance/payload of your trips -- would be way way more expensive than
getting your IFR rating in a rental 172.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Dude" wrote in message
...


I bought my plane at about 25 hours. I was incredibly bored with the
planes
I was renting. The new plane was so much nicer to fly. I flew much more
often, and enjoyed it much more.

How long have you owned this plane? If you have owned it 5+ years, then
yes, it was a good deal. If that time has not yet elapsed, then time will
tell if it meets your needs as your flying habits evolve.

Also, if you buy a new plane, it can make sense to move up much sooner
than
5 years because of depreciation rules. If you buy used, you can usually
get

A student pilot buying a new plane?!? $200K invested in a very recently
aquired hobby?

most of what you paid for the plane if not more (assuming you don't get
taken on the buy). So I really don't get your 5 year rule.

If you sell a used plane within a few years of buying it, you will no doubt
have spent more money in catch-up maintenance than you can realistically
recover when you sell it.

On the other hand, if what you really want is an Archer, and it meets your
needs, then why wait?

Because at 25 hours it is unlikely you will know what you really want.
Your needs will change, you will prefer X-ctry or aerobatics or you will
need to go into short strips or you will need extended range or who knows
what else will change.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

I bought my plane at about 25 hours. I was incredibly bored with the
planes
I was renting. The new plane was so much nicer to fly. I flew much
more
often, and enjoyed it much more.

How long have you owned this plane? If you have owned it 5+ years, then
yes, it was a good deal. If that time has not yet elapsed, then time will
tell if it meets your needs as your flying habits evolve.


You rely on the statement that I am challenging to defend itself. Its the 5
years that I am challenging, so using it as a comeback doesn't help me make
sense of what you are trying to teach me.

I can assure you that if I were to trade up ( which I may do), I would still
be ahead due to tax savings. My plane is on a leaseback, and its not really
costing much at all. So what if it doesn't meet my needs anymore, my point
was that it takes much less time before the penalty for trading up is too
much. Also, how many hours does one have to fly before they are ready to
move up in ANY case? Renting a plane at $80 an hour for 200 hours is
$16,000 plus two years rental insurance for a total of $16,800. If you buy
a 60k plane, put 200 hours on it in 2 years, what is the worst you will lose
out? Maybe it will end up costing you an extra $4,000 or $5,000, IF you
really did buy the wrong plane. In the meantime, you had a lot of value you
get by being the owner and not having to schedule, pay daily minimums, etc.

Also, if you buy a new plane, it can make sense to move up much sooner
than
5 years because of depreciation rules. If you buy used, you can usually
get

A student pilot buying a new plane?!? $200K invested in a very recently
aquired hobby?

Newly acquired hobby only if you don't count time spent from childhood
through adulthood building models, reading about aviation, looking up at
every plane flying by, and wishing I were able to fly. Are you full time in
the aviation business? You seem to have lost the passion, man! Certainly,
without knowing the income of the person you are working with, its hard to
tell what they consider a reasonable loss, but to anyone in the flying hobby
an extra couple thousand a year can't be a huge mistake.



most of what you paid for the plane if not more (assuming you don't get
taken on the buy). So I really don't get your 5 year rule.

If you sell a used plane within a few years of buying it, you will no
doubt
have spent more money in catch-up maintenance than you can realistically
recover when you sell it.


Aha! This could be a gem of info. I am completely inexperienced here.
Tell me more. What kind of bill are we looking at on a 50 to 100k basic
plane like 182, arrow, mooney etc. I know the common wisdom on avionics is
that adding them to an old frame gets a poor return, but what about other
repairs and fixes. Are there any rules of thumb like 20% or 50% or what
not?


On the other hand, if what you really want is an Archer, and it meets
your
needs, then why wait?

Because at 25 hours it is unlikely you will know what you really want.
Your needs will change, you will prefer X-ctry or aerobatics or you will
need to go into short strips or you will need extended range or who knows
what else will change.


Perhaps I mistated. I think you may not know what you WANT. What you NEED
will be much easier to identify though. Where you are going to travel
shouldn't change because you get more hours. You can talk about your mission
with other pilots, instructors, FBO owners, plane salesmen, etc.. I got a
LOT of info from these sources when I bought. Much of it contradictory, but
it was easy enough to weed through. I suppose if you really don't know what
you want or need, then you should wait. However, that seems to be a matter
of maturity and research over pilot experience.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

"Dude" wrote in message
news
You rely on the statement that I am challenging to defend itself. Its the
5
years that I am challenging, so using it as a comeback doesn't help me
make
sense of what you are trying to teach me.

What I am saying is that there are a lot of random expenses involved in
airplane maintenance so that a year or even two years is not enough to get
an accurate cost of maintaining a given airplane, but these things tends to
average out over 5 years.

In other words, if I were to look at my airplane maintenance expenses for a
given year they might differ by as much as a factor of 3, yet a running
5-year average would be fairly predictable.


I can assure you that if I were to trade up ( which I may do), I would
still
be ahead due to tax savings.

What tax savings do you get by owning instead of renting? If you mean
depreciation, then you have to balance that against the cost of capital of
buying an airplane. Rental prices spread the cost of capital over many
users, so an accurate comparison of rental vs. owning usually favors renting
from a purely economic perspective.


My plane is on a leaseback, and its not really
costing much at all.

Well the only leaseback model I have seen that works well is where the owner
is an A&P or otherwise can tightly control maintenance costs.

A new airplane has much lower maintenance costs, but the value of a new
airplane depreciates and thus creates a high risk of a loss.


So a 60k plane, put 200 hours on it in 2 years, what is the worst you will
lose
out? Maybe it will end up costing you an extra $4,000 or $5,000, IF you
really did buy the wrong plane. In the meantime, you had a lot of value
you

You could lose much more than that. A new engine could cost twice your
estimated maximum loss. New exhaust, corrosion repair, new prop are others
which could cause very significant blips in maintenance costs.

every plane flying by, and wishing I were able to fly. Are you full time
in
the aviation business? You seem to have lost the passion, man!
Certainly,
without knowing the income of the person you are working with, its hard to
tell what they consider a reasonable loss, but to anyone in the flying
hobby
an extra couple thousand a year can't be a huge mistake.

I haven't lost the passion at all; I am as addicted to airplanes as anyone
else. I have, however, been around enough to have a sense of the economic
reality of owning an airplane.

I only wish the risk of airplane maintenance were only an extra couple
thousand dollars per year. I have known any number of instances where
surprise maintenance cost a pilot 20% of the value of an airplane -- no
matter if the airplane is a Piper Cub or a Gulfstream, that is a lot of
money.



Aha! This could be a gem of info. I am completely inexperienced here.
Tell me more. What kind of bill are we looking at on a 50 to 100k basic
plane like 182, arrow, mooney etc. I know the common wisdom on avionics
is
that adding them to an old frame gets a poor return, but what about other
repairs and fixes. Are there any rules of thumb like 20% or 50% or what
not?

A typical rule of thumb is to expect 5% to 10% of an airplane's cost in
"catch up" maintenance with a possible upper limits of 20% if you get really
unlucky.


Perhaps I mistated. I think you may not know what you WANT. What you
NEED
will be much easier to identify though. Where you are going to travel

Most students do not have a good sense of what avionics they will need.
They also tend not to have enough perspective on weather patterns to make
judgments on items like weather avoidance equipment vs. a nice paint job,
turbocharger vs. extended fuel tanks, etc.


--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com