Owning before obtaining a PP license

Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot

Don't spend hundreds of thousands of dollars before you get your license.
You may find that you don't like flying, or you don't have one of the
necessary skills to be a safe pilot, particularly in a higher performance
airplane. Wait until you know what type of flyer you are (or will be) and
pick a suitable airplane at the time.

If you're thinking Cirrus long term, when the time comes to buy, get a
Tomahawk, Cherokee, or Grumman to get a feel for low wing aircraft and
systems. That'll make the transition to the Cirrus easier, and you won't
lose too much money on any of those aircraft. In addition, if you really
want to do a lease-back, those airplanes will be affordable enough that you
might actually rent them enough so you don't lose your shirt. Unless you
live in the perfect environment (plenty of people with money and free time,
plus excellent weather), I don't see how you'd do enough rental business on
a Cirrus to even put a dent in the ownership cost.


"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also
that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain
some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot

Ask your tax professional if you would benefit from sec 179 depreciation.

As far as Cirrus specific information, check out the Cirrus Owners and
Pilots Association at http://www.cirruspilots.org/ . Spend the $50 to join,
it'll pay for itself many times.

If you are halfway through your training and pretty sure you will continue
with it, by all means get on the ownership train.

Jim


"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also
that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain
some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot

If you are sure you want to be an owner, then don't let not having a license
stop you. Lot's of people, including me, bought before they got the PPL.
Purchase and ownership do take time though, so you are likely delaying your
PPL completion.

The SR22 is too much plane for many folks with 10 times your experience. In
order to get one of those, and be able to fly it, you will pay HUGE amounts
in insurance and training costs.

I suggest buying something much more docile if you really want to own now.
Wait until you have an IFR and a few hundred hours before getting that much
airplane. Yes, they are nice and fast, and have long legs, but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.

If you plan to use depreciation, make sure you want to own a plane for life
(otherwise, you have to pay it back).

Lastly, if you really, really want to get up to an SR22 soon, buy a late
model plane but not new. New planes take a big hit in the first two years,
so if you are trading up quickly, its generally better to go used.




"New Pilot" wrote in message
. ..
Hello all,

Wanted to hear your advice about buying a brand-new plane even before
getting the PPL ticket.

Here is my situation: I am a businessman sitting on quite a bit of cash
being generated by my business, and I am also a student pilot, will
probably
get my ticket by the next Summer. I am thinking about buying one of them
Cirri SR22.

Considering that the inflation in this country is picking up, and also
that
there is quite a long waitlist for those Cirrus aircraft, would it make
sense for me to place an order now, and until I get my ticket and gain
some
experience, to lease the plane back to my local FBO?

Does this make sense economically, or am I totally crazy? In general, how
good an investment are those brand-new airplanes, provided one can afford
to
pay cash for them?

Thanks in advance,

A Newbie Pilot

"Dude" wrote in message ...
.... but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.


I'm curious to see where this statement comes from. What data do you
have to back up the statement that a Diamond Star or 182 is "safer"
than the Cirrus SR22?

Aside from that, as a newly minted PPL, most would not advise jumping
into a high-perf airplane. What are you training in? If you like it,
consider buying that model, new or used. Or others similar to it. If
you want to unload that pile of cash, you can spend it nicely on a new
Cessna 172/182 or a Piper Archer. Over $200K. In a year or two
you'll probably be able to sell it for a good percentage of what you
paid.

Save your pile of cash for down the road when you're adequately
prepared for the step up. And, as others have said, you'll have a
real hard time getting insured as a new pilot, without IFR, with low
hours, in an SR22 to fly it solo. They may even require 50 hours or
more with an instructor with time in type.

The numbers I heard for a student in a 22 were 14k insurance, and they had
to use a factory course. There is a group out of Oregon that comes to your
airport and trains you. It cannot be cheap.


"Dave" wrote in message
om...
"Dude" wrote in message
...
.... but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.


I'm curious to see where this statement comes from. What data do you
have to back up the statement that a Diamond Star or 182 is "safer"
than the Cirrus SR22?

Aside from that, as a newly minted PPL, most would not advise jumping
into a high-perf airplane. What are you training in? If you like it,
consider buying that model, new or used. Or others similar to it. If
you want to unload that pile of cash, you can spend it nicely on a new
Cessna 172/182 or a Piper Archer. Over $200K. In a year or two
you'll probably be able to sell it for a good percentage of what you
paid.

Save your pile of cash for down the road when you're adequately
prepared for the step up. And, as others have said, you'll have a
real hard time getting insured as a new pilot, without IFR, with low
hours, in an SR22 to fly it solo. They may even require 50 hours or
more with an instructor with time in type.

The numbers I use are the only ones I trust - NTSB incident and fatality
statistics.

The rest is all conjecture, anecdote, and psuedo science. Well, its not
that bad, but I start with the stats, and qualify it from there.

The SR22 is statistically safer than the 20, and both have been doing better
since they started the factory training. There are lots of theories, but we
really do not know why they have faired so badly. Cirrus has reacted
reasonably well, with more training. We will likely know more in another
year or so.

The newer 182's are doing a bit better than the older ones. The Diamond's
have low fleet numbers on the 4 seaters, but the 2 seater is a similar
design, and is so much safer than anything else in the fleet that there have
been serious studies to figure out why. There have been midairs, inverted
landings, IFR CFIT accidents, wire strikes, and cross runway collisions with
the Diamond's in which the passengers walked away virtually unharmed. I
hear that Lancair has looked at Diamond's success, and even hired away
employees from them to make the 400.

Aviation Consumer had an excellent article on all this.



"Dave" wrote in message
om...
"Dude" wrote in message
...
.... but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.


I'm curious to see where this statement comes from. What data do you
have to back up the statement that a Diamond Star or 182 is "safer"
than the Cirrus SR22?

Aside from that, as a newly minted PPL, most would not advise jumping
into a high-perf airplane. What are you training in? If you like it,
consider buying that model, new or used. Or others similar to it. If
you want to unload that pile of cash, you can spend it nicely on a new
Cessna 172/182 or a Piper Archer. Over $200K. In a year or two
you'll probably be able to sell it for a good percentage of what you
paid.

Save your pile of cash for down the road when you're adequately
prepared for the step up. And, as others have said, you'll have a
real hard time getting insured as a new pilot, without IFR, with low
hours, in an SR22 to fly it solo. They may even require 50 hours or
more with an instructor with time in type.

Which Diamond Two Seater? The Katana/Rotax or the current DA20
Eclipse/Evolution?


"Dude" wrote in message
...
The numbers I use are the only ones I trust - NTSB incident and fatality
statistics.

The rest is all conjecture, anecdote, and psuedo science. Well, its not
that bad, but I start with the stats, and qualify it from there.

The SR22 is statistically safer than the 20, and both have been doing
better
since they started the factory training. There are lots of theories, but
we
really do not know why they have faired so badly. Cirrus has reacted
reasonably well, with more training. We will likely know more in another
year or so.

The newer 182's are doing a bit better than the older ones. The Diamond's
have low fleet numbers on the 4 seaters, but the 2 seater is a similar
design, and is so much safer than anything else in the fleet that there
have
been serious studies to figure out why. There have been midairs,
inverted
landings, IFR CFIT accidents, wire strikes, and cross runway collisions
with
the Diamond's in which the passengers walked away virtually unharmed. I
hear that Lancair has looked at Diamond's success, and even hired away
employees from them to make the 400.

Aviation Consumer had an excellent article on all this.



"Dave" wrote in message
om...
"Dude" wrote in message
...
.... but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.


I'm curious to see where this statement comes from. What data do you
have to back up the statement that a Diamond Star or 182 is "safer"
than the Cirrus SR22?

Aside from that, as a newly minted PPL, most would not advise jumping
into a high-perf airplane. What are you training in? If you like it,
consider buying that model, new or used. Or others similar to it. If
you want to unload that pile of cash, you can spend it nicely on a new
Cessna 172/182 or a Piper Archer. Over $200K. In a year or two
you'll probably be able to sell it for a good percentage of what you
paid.

Save your pile of cash for down the road when you're adequately
prepared for the step up. And, as others have said, you'll have a
real hard time getting insured as a new pilot, without IFR, with low
hours, in an SR22 to fly it solo. They may even require 50 hours or
more with an instructor with time in type.

I don't know if the reports I have seen included the rotax planes or not.
However, there are so few of them that they would make little difference in
the overall numbers.


"T.Roger" wrote in message
m...
Which Diamond Two Seater? The Katana/Rotax or the current DA20
Eclipse/Evolution?


"Dude" wrote in message
...
The numbers I use are the only ones I trust - NTSB incident and fatality
statistics.

The rest is all conjecture, anecdote, and psuedo science. Well, its not
that bad, but I start with the stats, and qualify it from there.

The SR22 is statistically safer than the 20, and both have been doing
better
since they started the factory training. There are lots of theories, but
we
really do not know why they have faired so badly. Cirrus has reacted
reasonably well, with more training. We will likely know more in another
year or so.

The newer 182's are doing a bit better than the older ones. The
Diamond's
have low fleet numbers on the 4 seaters, but the 2 seater is a similar
design, and is so much safer than anything else in the fleet that there
have
been serious studies to figure out why. There have been midairs,
inverted
landings, IFR CFIT accidents, wire strikes, and cross runway collisions
with
the Diamond's in which the passengers walked away virtually unharmed. I
hear that Lancair has looked at Diamond's success, and even hired away
employees from them to make the 400.

Aviation Consumer had an excellent article on all this.



"Dave" wrote in message
om...
"Dude" wrote in message
...
.... but a 182 or
Diamond Star won't be that far behind the 22, and they are much safer.


I'm curious to see where this statement comes from. What data do you
have to back up the statement that a Diamond Star or 182 is "safer"
than the Cirrus SR22?

Aside from that, as a newly minted PPL, most would not advise jumping
into a high-perf airplane. What are you training in? If you like it,
consider buying that model, new or used. Or others similar to it. If
you want to unload that pile of cash, you can spend it nicely on a new
Cessna 172/182 or a Piper Archer. Over $200K. In a year or two
you'll probably be able to sell it for a good percentage of what you
paid.

Save your pile of cash for down the road when you're adequately
prepared for the step up. And, as others have said, you'll have a
real hard time getting insured as a new pilot, without IFR, with low
hours, in an SR22 to fly it solo. They may even require 50 hours or
more with an instructor with time in type.

"Dude" wrote in message
...

The SR22 is statistically safer than the 20, and both have been doing
better
since they started the factory training.

How is the sample size on this? I suspect that any 20 vs. 22 conjecture is
statistically on shaky ground.

There are lots of theories, but we
really do not know why they have faired so badly.

My unqualified conjecture is that aircraft performance has not been taken
sufficiently into account in our understanding of risk. The SR-22 delivers
speeds formerly available only to twins and the most complex singles with
the same number of knobs to twiddle as a 172. But a new SR-22 will nearly
double the cruise speed of a middle-aged 172.

I tend to think, again unqualified opinion, that the Cirrus has been
attracting a dangerous type of pilot. That is, someone with less experience
but a lot of money who sees the high performance only as a benefit and is
lured by an illusion of low complexity.

I'd like to see an analysis of the SR-22 against other types where one
controls for pilot experience. In other words, how do 400-hour Cirrus pilots
do compared to 400-hour A36 pilots? Give a less-experienced or current pilot
the choice between flying an SR-22 and a Bonanza and he'll almost certainly
choose the Cirrus. In fact the risk may be quite comparable.

Also, there's the notion, which I believe very strongly in, that the
parachute creates a false sense of security and entices pilots into trying
things that get them killed in ways the 'chute won't help. As the Lancair
fleet grows we'll see if this holds out, because they offer similar
performance and complexity.

Also, I tend to wonder whether speed brakes wouldn't be a great addition to
the SR-22 that would actually make it safer to fly by making it easier for
the pilot to get rid of speed.

Cirrus has reacted
reasonably well, with more training. We will likely know more in another
year or so.

Well, they had to do something--you can't sell a plane that no one will
insure and that's where Cirrus looked to be heading.

From what I've read the SR-22 rates seem to be converging towards those of
the 182, which casts some doubt on my performance-vs-complexity theory. Or
not. If this was a decisive factor it would seem straightforward enough to
incorporate it into the training. This would comport with what we've seen
between owner-flown turbine twins and light jets like the CJ1. The jet may
challenge you with a lot more altitude and cruise speed but it also offers a
lot more tools to manage all that performance. We do know that with proper
training a pilot can operate very high performance aircraft with relatively
few training hours.

the Diamond's in which the passengers walked away virtually unharmed. I
hear that Lancair has looked at Diamond's success, and even hired away
employees from them to make the 400.

The kind of crashes that people have survived in Katanas are amazing.
Diamond talks a lot about the 20g cage structure and it seems to really
work.

-cwk.