First NASA form filed

And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last
week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO,
having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on
taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end.

As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21.
She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had
been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21
during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation.

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some
enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form
regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS had
called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was over the
hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line. I think
it's important to note that the controller had not told me to hold short
of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a pretty flagrant
violation.


Some people may not like me saying this but I do not agree with the rule
that you are cleared to cross all runways on your way to where you are
taxiing. I think the default should be that they must explicitly tell you
you are cleared to cross ANY runway and when you don't hear that you must
stop and ask (or call and ask as you are approaching it).

I am frequently given instructions which make me cross an active runway
without explicitly saying so and I always ask before doing so and STILL look
out for traffic on it before crossing.

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given ...

You are incorrect.

I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being
reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial
training on airport operations.
In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18.

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

Paul Folbrecht wrote:


I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given ...


You are incorrect.

Good news to me if that's correct. However, a CFI I know (not my CFI)
and a controller at another class D airport disagree with you. I should
have mentioned this - this is why I decided to file the form.

I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).


After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being
reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial
training on airport operations.

Yeah, I guess you're right, it's painfully obvious that a taxi clearance
implicitly grants permission to grant *active* runways, and I'm
hopelessly clueless.

In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18.

I'll certainly do that.

Ok, well, you are quite right - AIM 4-3-18.6 is entirely clear on this
scenario and I had no obligation to hold.

Since this does seem to be a fairly common point of confusion, though,
I'd suggest that your condescending comment wasn't exactly warranted.

Good think the mailman hadn't come yet. :-) Now how do you retract a
post from Usenet?

Brien K. Meehan wrote:

Paul Folbrecht wrote:


I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given ...


You are incorrect.


I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).


After some initial puzzlement (e.g. "Umm, what's the problem being
reported here?"), I would hope they'd realize you need some remedial
training on airport operations.
In the meantime, have a look at AIM 4-3-18.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 15:04:52 GMT, Paul Folbrecht
wrote:

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

You need to review the AIM regarding taxi clearances. In particular:

===========================================
4-3-18. Taxiing
6. In the absence of holding instructions, a clearance to "taxi to" any
point other than an assigned takeoff runway is a clearance to cross ALL
runways that intersect the taxi route to that point.
============================================
(emphasis mine)

While some may argue that clearance to cross each and every runway should
be given by ATC, at least in the US, that is NOT the case.


--ron

At the "Communicating for Safety" conference put on by NATCA in Dallas, I
got the impression that there is a lot of controller sentiment in favor of
changing the AIM's laissez faire approach to crossing runways enroute to the
departure runway.

Bob Gardner

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last
week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO,
having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on
taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end.

As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21.
She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had
been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21
during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation.

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some
enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form
regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

Speaking of which, I have been checking the accessible database at
https://www.nasdac.faa.gov/servlet/p..._schema=NASDAC
and there hasn't been any new reports in there for months.

When ever I cross a runway I always stop a look both ways then self announce
that I am crossing the runway (just like at an uncontrolled airport) just in
case the controller made a mistake or forgot about me. Usually I get an
"OK' reply.

"Paul Folbrecht" wrote in message
news
And I sincerely hope it will be the last.

I landed at LSE (LaCrosse) on the way home from the twin cities last
week. I landed on 18 and asked for a progressive taxi to the FBO,
having never been there before. Controller told me to turn left on
taxiway bravo down to the construction cones at the end.

As I was taxiing, I was about to cross 21, then recalled that the ATIS
had called 18 and 21 as active. I stopped, hard, but my nosegear was
over the hold line - in fact my mains were pretty much on the hold line.
I think it's important to note that the controller had not told me to
hold short of 21. If she had, then obviously this would have been a
pretty flagrant violation.

After a split second of uncertainty I told tower I was holding at 21.
She immediately told me to continue past in the chipper tone she had
been using all along. Note that nobody had landed on or departed 21
during the entire time of my taxi so there was no loss of separation.

I do believe that it was my responsibility to hold short of 21 even
though no explicit instruction had been given, though I'm not 100% sure
of that (but in the future I'll be damn sure to in similar
circumstances!). And, unless the controller deliberately wanted to make
me believe nothing was wrong for some reason, I believe she either
didn't notice I was over the hold (this intersection is pretty close to
the tower) or didn't care. Her voice indicated nothing out of the
ordinary, as I said. I know they don't 'have to' ask you to call the
tower or let you know they're making a report, though.

Though the logical side of my brain tells me that the chances of some
enforcement action here would be slim, of course I filed the form
regardless. I'd be interested in hearing people's opinions on that
matter (the chance of some investigation).

Paul Folbrecht wrote:

I'd suggest that your condescending comment wasn't exactly warranted.

I'm sorry if it sounded that way, but I wasn't being condescending.

Airport operations and following taxi instructions are basic knowledge
required to fly safely. You might think it's safe to hold short of a
runway "just in case," but you could have caused a taxiway incursion
by stopping suddenly.

There's nothing wrong with remedial training. If you don't know this
area, you need to find out. If you learned it incorrectly, you need to
repair that. Clarify this area of knowledge with your instructor and
that tower controller (it's possible you misunderstood each other while
discussing this). If he doesn't know it correctly, bring him along to
someone who does, or at least show him the book.