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JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million



 
 
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  #31  
Old March 23rd 10, 05:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Sunny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million


"Ian B MacLure" wrote in message
.. .
" Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282
@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

[snip]

Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for the
thing.
As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough
first,
to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.)
We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-)


As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits
from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon.
A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area
150km in diameter.
What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour
ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are
supposed to go pear shaped.

IBM


Close Air Support/Close Arty Support?
The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call the
first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our position down
to 25 metres. Shudder to think what the "Close Support" first round
restrictions would be. As a Grunt I hope it would be within ear shot, for
the next correction request.

(Especially with many diverse Infantry Ops within your 150km area) :-)


Ads
  #32  
Old March 23rd 10, 10:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Andrew Chaplin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 728
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

" Sunny" wrote in
:


"Ian B MacLure" wrote in message
.. .
" Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282
@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

[snip]

Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for
the thing.
As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough
first,
to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.)
We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-)


As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits
from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon.
A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area
150km in diameter.
What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour
ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are
supposed to go pear shaped.

IBM


Close Air Support/Close Arty Support?
The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call
the first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our
position down to 25 metres. Shudder to think what the "Close Support"
first round restrictions would be. As a Grunt I hope it would be
within ear shot, for the next correction request.

(Especially with many diverse Infantry Ops within your 150km area)
:-)


It has been a long time since I have done it so I may be missing a
wrinkle, but DANGER CLOSE could be brought in to four probable errors of
friendly positions from 1000 metres for 155 and 620 metres for 105. If
you have at least 0.45 metres overhead cover, you can bring it onto the
positions if need be. Which PE you use depends on the relationship of the
line gun-target to the positions.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)
  #33  
Old March 23rd 10, 12:42 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Jim Wilkins
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 57
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

On Mar 23, 6:45*am, Andrew Chaplin
wrote:
...
It has been a long time since I have done it so I may be missing a
wrinkle,
Andrew Chaplin


The question I poorly stated (purple smoke) was whether standoff PGMs
could completely replace observer-adjusted artillery or more
importantly manned CAS, I think it's possible that an enemy could
create countermeasures against laser designators etc but don't want to
discuss how, lets just assume they can, like assuming that pig the
Natter can fly.

jsw
  #34  
Old March 23rd 10, 09:00 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Arved Sandstrom[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

Ian B MacLure wrote:
Arved Sandstrom wrote in
news:[email protected]:

[snip]

That may be true. But given that radar stealth doesn't mean radar
invisible, flying at 20,000+ feet doesn't exactly make you safe from
SAMs. And even if the F-35 is dropping some PGM glide-bomb from 50 nm
away he's still over some other patch of ground with SAMs and their
radars.


And who says the SAMs are going to know the JSF is there until
things start going pear shaped?


Well, I suppose if all the enemy's radars are switched off and we only
fight at night, maybe the SAMs won't.

Like I said, these planes are radar *stealthy*, not radar invisible. And
that depends on angle as well - painted from the beam or not far off,
these planes presumably don't have the RCS of a mosquito.

And if that's all the plane is going to do is stand off at incredible
distances to launch ordnance, we can't have cheaper planes do the same
thing? Or just build a ****load of cruise missiles?


And weren't we discussing CAS not IDS.

IBM


The "close" in CAS is defined by how close the ordnance is blowing up to
friendlies, not how far away the ordnance came from.

AHS
  #35  
Old March 24th 10, 12:38 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Ian B MacLure
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 100
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

" Sunny" wrote in
:


"Ian B MacLure" wrote in message
.. .
" Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282
@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

[snip]

Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for
the thing.
As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough
first,
to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.)
We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-)


As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits
from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon.
A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area
150km in diameter.
What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour
ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are
supposed to go pear shaped.

IBM


Close Air Support/Close Arty Support?
The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call
the first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our


Yeah that would be peacetime. In A'stan NATO I think has 700m or
so but when push came to shove it was "Danger Close" and folks
were known to call in fire on their own position in extremsis.
US forces in A'stan routinely call in to 200m IIRC.

IBM

  #36  
Old March 24th 10, 12:46 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Ian B MacLure
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 100
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million

Arved Sandstrom wrote in news:[email protected]:

[snip]

The "close" in CAS is defined by how close the ordnance is blowing up to
friendlies, not how far away the ordnance came from.


I am aware of that. IDS is generally not a mission that occurs in the
presence of friendlies. CAS is, in fact thats sort of the point of
CAS.

IBM
  #37  
Old March 24th 10, 05:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.military.naval,sci.military.naval
Sunny
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default JSF Price Tag Jumps to $135 Million


"Ian B MacLure" wrote in message
.. .
" Sunny" wrote in
:


"Ian B MacLure" wrote in message
.. .
" Sunny" wrote in news:xXhpn.14133$pv.11282
@news-server.bigpond.net.au:

[snip]

Here in Australia our stupid Govt. has not yet cancelled orders for
the thing.
As for artillery, you have to get the tubes and ammo close enough
first,
to support the Infantry. (Ex Grunt with 36 years service.)
We should have bought F15s to replace our F111 :-)

As to artillery, things have changed recently. First round hits
from 30+ km for tube artillery and 75km for MLRS are not uncommon.
A single MLRS or truck mounted version thereof can cover an area
150km in diameter.
What JSF does is give you longer range strike capacity and H hour
ability to take out high value targets undetected until things are
supposed to go pear shaped.

IBM


Close Air Support/Close Arty Support?
The old 8 inch were considered to be accurate, but we could never call
the first round closer than 1000 metres, even when we knew our


Yeah that would be peacetime. In A'stan NATO I think has 700m or
so but when push came to shove it was "Danger Close" and folks
were known to call in fire on their own position in extremsis.
US forces in A'stan routinely call in to 200m IIRC.

IBM


Not talking about peacetime, but SVN 69/70.
I have called in Kiwi 105, US 155 and 8inch, plus RAN 4.7inch.
The only time "first round on the ground", distance from observer target
was not questioned was when guns were in direct support of unit calling it
in (Locstats were continually updated when moving)

But, getting back to CAS, The JSF cannot cut it when "pop smoke" is
called.
The most important part of CAS is not hitting your own, and you cannot
identify friendly forces from 50km away.
IMHO the Australian Govt. should cancel orders for the JSF and look
elsewhere for our needs.
(Any A10s for sale) :-)


 




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