Glider Crash - Minden?

OK, OK. So the Jocks have a couple of wave windows
that can be activated in advance by a telephone call
in accordance with a local agreement. We have nothing
like that in Southern England!

I do hope you are not in favour of mandatory Mode S
Transponders in all aircraft (includes gliders, hang
gliders, paragliders and balloons).

Derek Copeland



At 09:12 06 September 2006, Rory O'Conor wrote:
Oh really?

Please read
http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....space%20MoU%20
BGA%20
2005%20lores.pdf
And then re-comment.

Rory

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Mode S Transponders....
Author: Derek Copeland
Date/Time: 17:20 05 September 2006
------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK we are not allowed to fly Gliders in Class
A or Airways, full
stop, period!

The only significant reason to oppose such a proposal are the costs
involved. What is really needed is a concerted effort to come up with a
truely low cost transponder or ADS-B transmitter (~$200), so that it becomes
a no brainer to carry one on everything that flies.

Mike Schumann

"Derek Copeland" wrote in
message ...
OK, OK. So the Jocks have a couple of wave windows
that can be activated in advance by a telephone call
in accordance with a local agreement. We have nothing
like that in Southern England!

I do hope you are not in favour of mandatory Mode S
Transponders in all aircraft (includes gliders, hang
gliders, paragliders and balloons).

Derek Copeland



At 09:12 06 September 2006, Rory O'Conor wrote:
Oh really?

Please read
http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....space%20MoU%20
BGA%20
2005%20lores.pdf
And then re-comment.

Rory

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Mode S Transponders....
Author: Derek Copeland
Date/Time: 17:20 05 September 2006
------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK we are not allowed to fly Gliders in Class
A or Airways, full
stop, period!

There are other issues at stake. These include the
possibility of airspace charging, the cost of an approved
installation now that EASA has so kindly taken us under
its control and the risk of being fined or grounded
should we inadvertantly infringe controlled airspace
even if only by a few metres.

Will we be breaking the law if we forget to turn the
transponders on, or if they or the batteries fail in
flight? One of the main characteristics of our current
New Labour Government is the number of usually stupid
new laws they have introduced that it is now possible
to fall foul of!

As to the safety issue, the Air Traffic Controllers
at our local airport have already admitted that they
will almost certainly filter out our returns to reduce
clutter on their radar screens! The only possible gains
we get from all this cost and hassle are slightly reduced
risks of being knocked out of the sky by a TCAS/ACAS
equipped airliners or UAVs. As there has never been
such a collision in the UK, is a reduction of an almost
zero risk really that worthwhile? Mode S does nothing
to reduce the much more probable risk of colliding
with another glider or light aircraft!

Derek Copeland

At 13:12 06 September 2006, Mike Schumann wrote:
The only significant reason to oppose such a proposal
are the costs
involved. What is really needed is a concerted effort
to come up with a
truely low cost transponder or ADS-B transmitter (~$200),
so that it becomes
a no brainer to carry one on everything that flies.

Mike Schumann

'Derek Copeland' wrote in
message ...
OK, OK. So the Jocks have a couple of wave windows
that can be activated in advance by a telephone call
in accordance with a local agreement. We have nothing
like that in Southern England!

I do hope you are not in favour of mandatory Mode
S
Transponders in all aircraft (includes gliders, hang
gliders, paragliders and balloons).

Derek Copeland



At 09:12 06 September 2006, Rory O'Conor wrote:
Oh really?

Please read
http://www.scottishglidingcentre.co....space%20MoU%20

BGA%20
2005%20lores.pdf
And then re-comment.

Rory

------------------------------------------------------------
Newsgroup: rec.aviation.soaring
Subject: Mode S Transponders....
Author: Derek Copeland
Date/Time: 17:20 05 September 2006
------------------------------------------------------------
In the UK we are not allowed to fly Gliders in Class
A or Airways, full
stop, period!

Pity that Derek does not appear to have read the references provided by
Rory. The items on the SGU website relate to the Scottish TMA around
Edinburgh and a local agreement between the SGU and NATS Edinburgh that
permits easier access to the South though defined routes, an agreement
between the BGA, SGU and Scottish Air Traffic relating to crossing the
airwayS viz P600 andB226 subject to prior notification and radio calls, and
an agreement between the BGA, SGU and the Scottish Control centre that
permits gliders from Portmoak access to the Northern part of the Scottish
TMA and southern part of P600 at weekends. No mention of the Scottish Wave
boxes in any of these.

Mike Schumann wrote:
The only significant reason to oppose such a proposal are the costs
involved. What is really needed is a concerted effort to come up with a
truely low cost transponder or ADS-B transmitter (~$200), so that it becomes
a no brainer to carry one on everything that flies.

Not quite. It also needs to:
- contain the equivalent of a PCAS receiver
- fit a single panel position (preferably 57mm like the Filser
and Microair mode-S transponders do)

In addition is should probably:
- be light (under 900 grams)
- have a low power requirement, ideally no more than a glider radio
but certainly under 600 mA average


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

"W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)." wrote in
:

Fitting a transponder
would do hardly anything to reduce collision risk for most gliding in the
UK. It will only help those who can and want to fly high in wave.

I note that there are moves to have unmanned aircraft (UAVs)
flying in UK airspace, e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5198364.stm

The current rules and procedures presume that all
aircraft contain functioning eyeballs and brains
that can look out the window. If they don't then
the rules and procedures have to be rethought.

Anybody see a connection with mandatory transponders?

Yes, we all see the connection.

How are they planning to avoid hang and paragliders?

The BGA has made a response as an organisation to the recent PRIA, it is to
be found at http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/BGARIAResponseFinal.doc for the
response document, and at
http://www.gliding.co.uk/forms/Email...rLetterRIA.pdf for the covering
letter. There were some 3,000 responses sent to the DAP.

On UAVs the BGA says in Response 1 Issue 6: "Issue 6. The BGA believes
strongly that it is totally unacceptable that existing airspace users should
be disadvantaged or burdened as UAV traffic develops in the future."

It is confounded cheek for commercial interests to think they can fly UAVs
wherever they like and we shall just have to suffer the inconvenience or
worse to accommodate them. They would never dream of doing this on the
roads, why in the sky?

As to the example quoted in the BBC of an UAV "seeing" something the human
eye would have missed, this can equally easily be done with sensors fitted
to manned aircraft. The military use UAVs partly to avoid people being
shot down in a war situation.

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.).
Remove "ic" to reply.


"Tom Gardner" wrote in message
43.53...


"W.J. \(Bill\) Dean \(U.K.\)." wrote in
:

Fitting a transponder
would do hardly anything to reduce collision risk for most gliding in the
UK. It will only help those who can and want to fly high in wave.


I note that there are moves to have unmanned aircraft (UAVs)
flying in UK airspace, e.g.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/5198364.stm

The current rules and procedures presume that all
aircraft contain functioning eyeballs and brains
that can look out the window. If they don't then
the rules and procedures have to be rethought.

Anybody see a connection with mandatory transponders?

"kirk.stant" wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested, possibly much more)
knots? If you start in a thermalling glider at minimum sink speed, you can't
seem to run fast enough far enough given the rate of closure -- and the lack
of time to estimate relative motion precisely enough. We don't have
targeting radars in most of the gliders (not sure about Space Shuttle
though).
--
Yuliy

W.J. (Bill) Dean (U.K.). wrote:

Yes, we all see the connection.

How are they planning to avoid hang and paragliders?

By mandating mode-S + ADS-B transponders for them too.
There is some exemption clause for paragliders until
the technology catches up. Probably until some avionics
marketeer says so.

I'm really looking forward to carrying a 600W microwave
transmitter and associated battery. :-(

Iwo

Yuliy Gerchikov wrote:
"kirk.stant" wrote in message
oups.com...

Plus, 20 seconds is an eternity when it comes to getting out of the
way.

I asked this question several times, and never saw a convincing answer:
exactly how do you use even the 20 seconds if you have them to avoid
something coming at you at 300 (or, it was suggested, possibly much more)
knots?

Stop turning and stick the nose down steeply at the same time.

That's about the quickest way to exit a given volume of air that I can
think of if you're starting from a low airspeed. I'll be interested to
hear of anything that would be faster and/or of something what would
work if you're too low to dive away from the threat.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |