Winds A Factor In Lidle Crash

On 8 Nov 2006 10:32:18 -0800, "gpsman" wrote
in .com:

I think it may be overly generous to allow fixed-wing aircraft in that
corridor at all. The lack of "outs" would easily lead me to a "no-go"
decision under the best of other circumstances.

It's my understanding, that the ceiling is 2,000', so apparently there
are alternatives to flying it at 500'.

On Wed, 08 Nov 2006 18:33:05 GMT, Jose
wrote in :

Which leads to the conclusion that they weren't aware of
the crosswind component, hadn't been briefed on the wind, or ...

... didn't think it was significant. That's an easy mistake especially
for a new pilot in a fast airplane to make.

True. There are at least three possibilities.

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
Dudley's right, and the way I look at it, there are two big
components to the way a pilot has to make his decision about
whether he is going to undertake the risk. The first is to
realistically evaluate his own level of competence. The
second is to evaluate the level of difficulty/risk inherent
in the specific situation. It's how well the difference
between those gets evaluated that makes a good pilot.
Or fear...
I used to live in the middle of that turn (Roosevelt Island) and at the
same time, gave my first VFR corridor ride to my Dad. I mean, if you
are going to give a ride to the person you want to impress most with
your relatively new flying skills, and you live in NYC, where else are
you going go?

So I planned and executed a successful tour in a rented 172. I flew
over the GW bridge, down the Hudson, past the WTC, made a 180 out over
the NY harbor and back out via the GW.

Now, why didn't I fly past my apartment on Roosevelt Island, make a 180
and do a tour of the upper eastside?

Because I was scared. Too scared to fly anything up the East River over
the Tram, over the Island and thru the 59th Street heliport traffic.
Just too scared of screwing up. Heck, the Hudson scared the stuff out
of me as it was. IOTW, I evaluated my level of compentence against the
difficulty/risk inherent in the situation and chickened out.

Good pilot? Safe pilot? Nahh, just alive by the grace of ...

....plus what Dudley said so well.

It's my understanding, that the ceiling is 2,000', so apparently there
are alternatives to flying it at 500'.

It's very badly marked, but the limits of the Bravo are 70/11, so the
ceiling is 1100 feet. He was flying at 700 or so.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Just push some 'top rudder' to help hold the nose up while you are doing that steep turn. Report back your findings...

Oh, be sure you are at least 3,000 agl...



"T o d d P a t t i s t" wrote in message
...
: Jose wrote:
:
: have you ever actually tried to stall/spin
: when banked to greater than 45 degrees?
:
: No, but I've made many such turns.
:
: You really should try to see if you can stall at banks above
: 45 degrees. It's very enlightening. My conclusion is that
: the stall/spin resistance goes up as the bank increases for
: most aircraft I fly. A spin requires yaw relative to the
: aircraft's axis, and as you approach 90 degrees of bank in a
: turn, the yaw rate approaches zero.
:
: --
: Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and metal.
:
: - Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.'

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com wrote in message
news
: I'm just glad it wasn't me. Or anybody I know.
:
: And frankly, those who refuse to recognize their own weaknesses go through life
: with their head buried in their ass. (Ron Lee, this means you.)
:
:
:
:
: --
: Mortimer Schnerd, RN
: mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
:
:

Uh huh, I too have done stupid things, but I still call the Lexington KY and this Lidle crash good demonstrations of
stupid pilot tricks. Yes, learn, but don't let them off so easily. They are bonehead mistakes and everyone needs to
watch out for themselves to be sure they don't get in to that stupid state of mind....

..Blueskies. wrote:
Uh huh, I too have done stupid things, but I still call the Lexington KY and
this Lidle crash good demonstrations of stupid pilot tricks. Yes, learn, but
don't let them off so easily. They are bonehead mistakes and everyone needs
to watch out for themselves to be sure they don't get in to that stupid state
of mind....


Let them off so easily? What would you have me do? Dig them up so we can all
slap the **** out of them? I think they've already paid as much as they had to
give.

Jeez... this is a tough crowd.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Matt Whiting wrote:
Doug wrote:

I think there is a lesson here for all of us pilots. When in close
quarters, consider the wind. Even better allow DOUBLE (or some other
amount you are comfortable with) the turning room for a 180 degree turn
around. Also, go out and practice a "minimum radius turnaround" (hint,
generally the slower you go the smaller the radius, the steeper you go
the smaller the radius etc). We learn a chandelle in commercial
manuevers, which is not really a minimum radius turnaround. I wonder if
the FAA would consider modifying the chandelle to BECOME a minimum
radius turnaround manuever? At any rate, try and learn from these
pilots mistakes. I know I have been in some tight mountain canyons and
not really considered the effects of the wind as I probably should
have. I just looked and there was room so I executed the turn. So far I
have been served well by my eyes and distant estimates, but perhaps I
should allow a little more room for error if there is any signifigant
tailwind during the turn.


The nice thing about a chandelle in this circumstance is the altitude
that it would have gained them.

Matt

I think the appropriate maneuver for this situation from the Commercial
Pilot syllabus would be half of a lazy-8. This provides a minimum
lateral displacement 180 degree reversal but does require some vertical
space to execute, also a reasonable airspeed. Perhaps the safest
execution would be to first lower the nose to gain speed, then do the
half lazy-8 into the wind. Another way of describing this is that it
is a mild wingover with only a 60 degree bank instead of 90 degree in a
full wingover.

Klein

Bill Watson wrote:

Now, why didn't I fly past my apartment on Roosevelt Island, make a 180
and do a tour of the upper eastside?

Because I was scared. Too scared to fly anything up the East River over
the Tram, over the Island and thru the 59th Street heliport traffic.
Just too scared of screwing up. Heck, the Hudson scared the stuff out
of me as it was. IOTW, I evaluated my level of compentence against the
difficulty/risk inherent in the situation and chickened out.

Good pilot? Safe pilot? Nahh, just alive by the grace of ...

No, you used proper judgement consistent with your abilities.

Ron Lee

T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:

Well, I'd say you made good, safe decisions.
I try to make more of 'em now but can't say I was really doing that
then. Mortality just wasn't in the equation - but embarassment, fear,
and other emotionally driven factors were.

Is there anyone here who thinks the Lidle aircraft might
have inadvertently gone up the East River, thinking they
were returning up the Hudson, then suddenly realized their
error? I don't know enough about the facts to know if
that's a possible scenario.

No, I really doubt it. You really have to misread the chart *and* he
had spent enough time in NYC to know what Manhatten island looks like.
I really doubt it.