Companies Allowing Employees to Fly

On 7 Nov 2006 05:34:37 -0800, "Steve - KDMW"
wrote:

Question...

I have to do a lot of regional travel for my company and, due to the
work we do, most of my work is actually at airports. I've asked my
company if I can use my personal aircraft for a lot of this travel and
they denied my request due to what the company percieves as their
liability in the matter.

Is my company misguided or do they really have some liability if I use
my airplane instead of my car for regional travel? What's the

I worked for a large multi national chemical corporation. We had Two
jets and a turboprop. When it came to flying on a business for
themselves even the pilots were not allowed to serve as crew in any
capacity.

difference between me crashing my airplane into a school (their
example) or plowing my car into the same school's bus stop?

Company lawyers and insurance companies is the difference.
Plus airplanes are a much higher profile than cars. We accept
multi-car pileups as just the cost of doing business. The public
would be and usually is, up in arms when a small plane hits the free
way if there is an altercation between the plane and someone's car.



Steve
CP - ASEL/IA
PA28-151
N43291
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

There are MANY workers' compensation policies that specifically ban covered
employees from flying in non-commercial aircraft.



There are also many large companies whose life insurance policies DOUBLE
the coverage while traveling on a "commercial conveyance" to conduct
company business.

Ironically, those same policies usually EXCLUDE coverage for accidental
death while piloting an aircraft or acting as a required crew member.
Your basic life insurance still holds up because these policies have no
exclusions (except for suicide and possibly war).

When you do the math, the mileage reimbursement does not even cover fuel
in an airplane.

If you claim the entire trip's mileage, are reimbursed, and use the
reimbursement for fuel, have you just conducted a "commercial" flight
under your aircraft insurance carrier's eyes? As I recall, fuel expenses
must be shared by the occupants to avoid being a commercial flight under
FAA rules.

Mike

In article et,
Mike Spera wrote:

If you claim the entire trip's mileage, are reimbursed, and use the
reimbursement for fuel, have you just conducted a "commercial" flight
under your aircraft insurance carrier's eyes? As I recall, fuel expenses
must be shared by the occupants to avoid being a commercial flight under
FAA rules.

The FAR is this:

61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
[...]
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command
of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or
hire.

Let's look at that carefully.

"A private pilot may, for compensation": You can be compensated for your
expenses (i.e. claim mileage, per-diem, or even your FBO's full hourly
rental cost).

"... or hire": You can even continue to draw your regular salary or wage.
I get paid an annual salary. As far as the FAA is concerned, if I fly
myself to Chicago, I'm perfectly OK marking down my time for that day as a
normal work day.

"The flight is only incidental to that business or employment": This is
where most people start to get confused. Incidental means the flying is
not an essential or required part of your job. Your boss says, "Be in
Chicago on Tuesday to attend a meeting with our client". The reason for
going to Chicago is because your boss needs you to meet with a client. You
could have driven, bought a ticket on United, rode your bicycle, or stuck a
bunch of stamps on your forehead and climbed into mailbox. The mode of
travel wasn't the important thing; the getting there was.

"The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or
hire": This is another tricky one for many people. Note that it doesn't
say you can't carry passengers or property. It just says you can't do
those things for compensation or hire. So, when I fly myself to Chicago,
if a co-worker, who also has to meet with the same client, comes with me,
that's fine.

One the other hand, if I say to my co-worker, "Hey, Joe, I'm happy to let
you come with me, but the 47 cents/mile rate I'm getting on my travel
expense report only covers half my real flying expenses. If both of us go,
we can both claim 47 cents per mile and if you give me yours, I'll just
about break even", now I'm in trouble. I'm carrying a passenger for
compensation.

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 08:53:07 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:

In article et,
Mike Spera wrote:

If you claim the entire trip's mileage, are reimbursed, and use the
reimbursement for fuel, have you just conducted a "commercial" flight
under your aircraft insurance carrier's eyes? As I recall, fuel expenses
must be shared by the occupants to avoid being a commercial flight under
FAA rules.

The FAR is this:

61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.
[...]
(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in command
of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:
(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and
(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or
hire.

Let's look at that carefully.

"A private pilot may, for compensation": You can be compensated for your
expenses (i.e. claim mileage, per-diem, or even your FBO's full hourly
rental cost).

"... or hire": You can even continue to draw your regular salary or wage.
I get paid an annual salary. As far as the FAA is concerned, if I fly
myself to Chicago, I'm perfectly OK marking down my time for that day as a
normal work day.


If you rent you can deduct the whole thing.
If you own it's only so much per mile or was.
If flying your own plane for your own business you can deduct the cost
up to the equivelant of a non discount coach fare or (again) it was
when I was working.



"The flight is only incidental to that business or employment": This is
where most people start to get confused. Incidental means the flying is
not an essential or required part of your job. Your boss says, "Be in
Chicago on Tuesday to attend a meeting with our client". The reason for
going to Chicago is because your boss needs you to meet with a client. You
could have driven, bought a ticket on United, rode your bicycle, or stuck a
bunch of stamps on your forehead and climbed into mailbox. The mode of
travel wasn't the important thing; the getting there was.

"The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation or
hire": This is another tricky one for many people. Note that it doesn't
say you can't carry passengers or property. It just says you can't do
those things for compensation or hire. So, when I fly myself to Chicago,
if a co-worker, who also has to meet with the same client, comes with me,
that's fine.

One the other hand, if I say to my co-worker, "Hey, Joe, I'm happy to let
you come with me, but the 47 cents/mile rate I'm getting on my travel
expense report only covers half my real flying expenses. If both of us go,
we can both claim 47 cents per mile and if you give me yours, I'll just
about break even", now I'm in trouble. I'm carrying a passenger for
compensation.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

On 9-Nov-2006, Mike Spera wrote:

When you do the math, the mileage reimbursement does not even cover fuel
in an airplane.


Maybe if you're flying a turbine powered airplane, but a piston single looks
a whole lot better. In my Arrow, in an hour's cruise I cover a distance
that would typically entail about 180 highway miles (Roads rarely run in a
straight line between origin and destination.) If I am compensated $0.40
per highway mile, that would come out to $72.00/hr, which is well above the
direct operating costs (i.e. fuel, oil, other consumables, and reserves for
engine and prop OHs.)

-Elliott Drucker

"Roy Smith" wrote in message
...
One the other hand, if I say to my co-worker, "Hey, Joe, I'm happy to let
you come with me, but the 47 cents/mile rate I'm getting on my travel
expense report only covers half my real flying expenses. If both of us
go,
we can both claim 47 cents per mile and if you give me yours, I'll just
about break even", now I'm in trouble. I'm carrying a passenger for
compensation.

But if he uses that to pay the flying expenses without the money going
through you it's not compensation.



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

My company does allow employees to use personal or rented
aircraft on company business. The requirements a
- $2 million smooth insurance policy
- Employer named as additional insured
- Must file annual pilot documentation & history forms
- Must get VP approval for each trip
- Cost may not exceed that of an airline ticket or car trip.

When I first started, the $2 million smooth insurance was not
enforced. They would accept $1M with $100K sub-limits.
After our corporate insurance policy was renegociated, they
begin enforcing the $2M smooth requirements. They also
required the company to pay a $7500 rider if an company
employee flew.

I had a number of occasions to fly my Aztec on company business
before the change. After the $2M smooth requirements, I was not
able to get that insurance coverage for the Aztec. I could get it
for my 172, but at $2200 versus $750 for the premium. It no
longer made economic sense, so the net results is that it put an
end to flying yourself on company business.

Ronnie


"Steve - KDMW" wrote in message
oups.com...
Question...

I have to do a lot of regional travel for my company and, due to the
work we do, most of my work is actually at airports. I've asked my
company if I can use my personal aircraft for a lot of this travel and
they denied my request due to what the company percieves as their
liability in the matter.

Is my company misguided or do they really have some liability if I use
my airplane instead of my car for regional travel? What's the
difference between me crashing my airplane into a school (their
example) or plowing my car into the same school's bus stop?

Steve
CP - ASEL/IA
PA28-151
N43291

Long ago in a Galaxy Far, Far Away...when I worked for Boeing (and it
really wasn't that long ago) we had to take 15 employees (2 managers and
the rest engineers) on a trip to meet customers. Our in-house travel
agency couldn't figure out what was going on, since we had to change
the dates repeatedly over the 2 month period. I finally took over
all the planning (logistics - no big deal, I ran it as if it was an
engineering project!)

On a lark, I called Seattle and asked about "borrowing" one of the
jets that the Executives use. Turns out that yes, we could make
arrangements and use it at the same billed cost as the execs. The
overall cost would have been 50% *cheaper* than flying commercial.
Why? Because due to the changing schedule, we had to pay full-fare in
order to mitigate changing the flights.

For some strange reason, my boss was *not* surprised I did this, but
would not take it to our director (just under the VP level).

Bummer.

"Blanche" wrote in message ...
: Long ago in a Galaxy Far, Far Away...when I worked for Boeing (and it
: really wasn't that long ago) we had to take 15 employees (2 managers and
: the rest engineers) on a trip to meet customers. Our in-house travel
: agency couldn't figure out what was going on, since we had to change
: the dates repeatedly over the 2 month period. I finally took over
: all the planning (logistics - no big deal, I ran it as if it was an
: engineering project!)
:
: On a lark, I called Seattle and asked about "borrowing" one of the
: jets that the Executives use. Turns out that yes, we could make
: arrangements and use it at the same billed cost as the execs. The
: overall cost would have been 50% *cheaper* than flying commercial.
: Why? Because due to the changing schedule, we had to pay full-fare in
: order to mitigate changing the flights.
:
: For some strange reason, my boss was *not* surprised I did this, but
: would not take it to our director (just under the VP level).
:
: Bummer.

Any employee in our company can try to book a flight on the company jets. There is even a rudimentary reservation
system. The catch is that there has to be enough demand locally and the planes need to be passing by. Sounds good until
you actually try to use it. Imagine, the CEO is on board, but we are going to stop by Kalamazoo to pick up a design
engineer that needs to go to Cleveland...

..Blueskies. wrote:
"Blanche" wrote in message ...
: Long ago in a Galaxy Far, Far Away...when I worked for Boeing (and it
: really wasn't that long ago) we had to take 15 employees (2 managers and
: the rest engineers) on a trip to meet customers. Our in-house travel
: agency couldn't figure out what was going on, since we had to change
: the dates repeatedly over the 2 month period. I finally took over
: all the planning (logistics - no big deal, I ran it as if it was an
: engineering project!)
:
: On a lark, I called Seattle and asked about "borrowing" one of the
: jets that the Executives use. Turns out that yes, we could make
: arrangements and use it at the same billed cost as the execs. The
: overall cost would have been 50% *cheaper* than flying commercial.
: Why? Because due to the changing schedule, we had to pay full-fare in
: order to mitigate changing the flights.
:
: For some strange reason, my boss was *not* surprised I did this, but
: would not take it to our director (just under the VP level).
:
: Bummer.

Any employee in our company can try to book a flight on the company jets. There is even a rudimentary reservation
system. The catch is that there has to be enough demand locally and the planes need to be passing by. Sounds good until
you actually try to use it. Imagine, the CEO is on board, but we are going to stop by Kalamazoo to pick up a design
engineer that needs to go to Cleveland...


I used to work for General Dynamics and when there was a group of 10 or
so who had to go from San Diego to LA for a evening meeting of a Tech
Society we were able to use a corporate aircraft for it. This was long
before I started flying and I did not know the benefits of GA but it a
no brainer for this flight as we all worked a full day, flew up for the
meeting and returned that night. All we had to do was submit the
request and have the various sign offs but it worked well for us. This
was in the 80s so who knows what the process would be now.