2005 Junior Worlds Accident

Having just read the posting by Alistair Wright I was
some what alarmed by his narrow minded attitude in
respect to a club that he does not appear to have flown
at for thirty years. Highlighting a one off incident
which involved a small number of people, and using
this as a stick to beat the whole operation with.

Reading further into the post, I rather wonder if in
fact he is a competition pilot himself. I am guessing
probably not a current one. Granted at some point he
may well have been, but grounding highly experienced
pundits because he did not like their circuit pattern……come
on, he must have been the laughing stock of the whole
comp.

Given his attitude, I would hazard a guess that he
has some sort of military back round, and may have
learned to fly with the RAF GSA.

It is the Alistair Wrights of the instructor world that cause many to
avoid flying with an instructor unless it is absolutely necessary.
Some like to exercise their power just becouse they can.

Justin, you probably think you are God's gift to flying but here's
some news for you: YOU ARE NOT.

Have you ever read the accident reports in the back of S&G? Pundit
after pundit sticking their Discus 2s and LS8s into fields from messed
up final glides. At the Juniors last year a kid smashed an Astir into
the hill below the field at Dunstable and was lucky to walk away.

You think the death of a person is not a good enough reason to "beat
people with a stick"? Then what the hell is? Two deaths? Three?

And what's with the dig at the GSA? Is safe flying something you do
not approve of? You'd do damned well to listen to instructors - they
know better than you do.


Dan

On Feb 9, 12:14 pm, Justin Craig
wrote:
Having just read the posting by Alistair Wright I was
some what alarmed by his narrow minded attitude in
respect to a club that he does not appear to have flown
at for thirty years. Highlighting a one off incident
which involved a small number of people, and using
this as a stick to beat the whole operation with.

Reading further into the post, I rather wonder if in
fact he is a competition pilot himself. I am guessing
probably not a current one. Granted at some point he
may well have been, but grounding highly experienced
pundits because he did not like their circuit pattern......come
on, he must have been the laughing stock of the whole
comp.

Given his attitude, I would hazard a guess that he
has some sort of military back round, and may have
learned to fly with the RAF GSA.

At 12:18 09 February 2007, Justin Craig wrote:
Having just read the posting by Alistair Wright I was
some what alarmed by his narrow minded attitude in
respect to a club that he does not appear to have flown
at for thirty years. Highlighting a one off incident
which involved a small number of people, and using
this as a stick to beat the whole operation with.

This is what the official report had to say about a
one off incident involving a few people 'The investigation
concluded that gliders involved in the race had been
flying unecessarily low during the approach to the
finish. The accident and other evidence suggested a
problem with the safe conduct of race finishes and
deficiencies in the training for and oversight of such
events'. I have read many accident reports over the
years and the AAIB are not given to making unfounded
adverse comments, and I have never read a more damming
indictment in an AAIB report. One glider pilot has
done untold damage to the reputation of the gliding
movement and the repercussions of his actions will
be felt by every competition pilot in the UK. While
Alistair has not put across the point as I would have
done his inference that we should have taken more care
to ensure that such accidents could not happen is justified.
Having said that the airmanship, competence and self
discipline of the vast majority of competition pilots
in the UK is a credit to the organisation. We do need
to address the problem of the few irresponsible louts.
What I find objectionable is that the vast majority
of competition pilots are likely to suffer restrictions
because of the idiotic act of one such irresponsible
lout.

At 23:24 09 February 2007, Dan G wrote:
You'd do damned well to listen to instructors - they
know better than you do.


Hmmn not always the case. 200 hour instructor with
Silver C who never ventures more than gliding distance
from an airfield knows more than pilot who flies several
thousand hours cross country and competition - think
not. I have flown with some instructors who quite
frankly scare the sh++ out of me.

Gentlemen it is quite easy -life is a game of risk
-sometimes the consequence of taking those risks is
death - in todays cuddly wuddly lets not do anything
in case we hurt ourselves society this seems to get
ignored.
Said photographer was taking a risk (as was the finishing
pilot who hit him) - he delibrately placed himself
under the flight path of competition gliders finishing,
to take photographs. He had full previous knowledge
of how competiton pilots fly a finish - to say he does
not bear any responsibility for the accident I frankly
feel is quite idiotic. I have seen many people take
this risk at competions - frankly it's behaviour I
wouldn't do -the risk is too great for me personally.

A combination of risks resulted in a death. Both
people were grown men who understood the risks they
were taking (or should have done). A death resulted
-boo hoo - let's grow up and move on, or shall we eliminate
all the risks of death by grounding the entire gliding
fleet worldwide.

At 11:00 10 February 2007, Nick Olson wrote:
At 23:24 09 February 2007, Dan G wrote:

Gentlemen it is quite easy -life is a game of risk
-sometimes the consequence of taking those risks is
death - in todays cuddly wuddly lets not do anything
in case we hurt ourselves society this seems to get
ignored.
Said photographer was taking a risk (as was the finishing
pilot who hit him) - he delibrately placed himself
under the flight path of competition gliders finishing,
to take photographs. He had full previous knowledge
of how competiton pilots fly a finish - to say he does
not bear any responsibility for the accident I frankly
feel is quite idiotic. I have seen many people take
this risk at competions - frankly it's behaviour I
wouldn't do -the risk is too great for me personally.

A combination of risks resulted in a death. Both
people were grown men who understood the risks they
were taking (or should have done). A death resulted
-boo hoo - let's grow up and move on, or shall we eliminate
all the risks of death by grounding the entire gliding
fleet worldwide.

I think you miss the point here. This accident took
place outside the boundaries of the airfield. The photographer
was stationary and he was very well known for adopting
such a position. The point, and the finding of the
report is that the glider should never have been where
it was. Unless the pilot aimed specifically for the
photographer it could have been anyone he hit, (the
man on the Clapham ominibus), someone perhaps that
did not have the knowledge that the photographer did,
would you say then that such a person had any responsibility
for the accident or his death. Would you say a security
gaurd was responsible for his own death if he was shot
by a robber: of course not, and the circumstances here
are not that different. The photographer was in no
way acting outsdide the law, he was going about his
lawful business, the same can not be said for the pilot
as is clear from the report. No where in the report
does it say that the photographer was not entitled
to be where he was or that he was acting in any way
irresponsibly.
People have the right to expect that others will behave
in a reasonable and safe manner, when they do not it
is never the 'fault' of the victim.

On Feb 10, 10:58 am, Nick Olson
wrote:
At 23:24 09 February 2007, Dan G wrote:

You'd do damned well to listen to instructors - they
know better than you do.

Hmmn not always the case. 200 hour instructor with
Silver C

You forget that instructors don't get their ratings by hours alone.
They are trained and examined by far more senior instructors -
instructors with rather more than 200 hours!

Hours does not automatically equal flight safety, especially with non-
professionals. People can fly with bad habits for years and "get away
with it", until one day they don't, just like the pilot at Hus Bos
(and frankly many other gliding "accidents").

Anyone can make a mistake, even experienced comp pilots with thousands
of hours (or an instructor for that matter). But if your basic flying
technique is safe, i.e. what an instructor would do, it's less likely
to end in disaster. I'll grant you though that there is the odd
instructor with the odd bad habit, but they are the minority.

There's a reason instructors get a discount on their insurance
premiums!


Dan

There's a reason instructors get a discount on their insurance
premiums!

I get an insurance discount because I have a commercial rating. When I
asked (Costello) if I would also get a discount because of my CFI
ticket, the answer was "no".

Tony V.

At 12:00 10 February 2007, Don Johnstone wrote:
I think you miss the point here. This accident took
place outside the boundaries of the airfield. The photographer
was stationary and he was very well known for adopting
such a position. The point, and the finding of the
report is that the glider should never have been where
it was. Unless the pilot aimed specifically for the
photographer it could have been anyone he hit, (the
man on the Clapham ominibus), someone perhaps that
did not have the knowledge that the photographer did,
would you say then that such a person had any responsibility
for the accident or his death. Would you say a security
gaurd was responsible for his own death if he was shot
by a robber: of course not, and the circumstances here
are not that different. The photographer was in no
way acting outsdide the law, he was going about his
lawful business, the same can not be said for the pilot
as is clear from the report. No where in the report
does it say that the photographer was not entitled
to be where he was or that he was acting in any way
irresponsibly.
People have the right to expect that others will behave
in a reasonable and safe manner, when they do not it
is never the 'fault' of the victim.

Yes Don I would say the security gaurd was partly responsible
for his own death - there is a risk in being a security
gaurd that you may indeed be the targer of a shooting
-you should be alert to that risk or not do the job
- to not to be is just being stupid.
I ride a high powered motorcycle - I am fully aware
that I could be killed doing that activity -however
the rewards outweigh the risks for me personally -
the same with gliding.

Now Don said photographer deliberately situated himself
on top of his vechile behind a hedge, under the flight
path of finishing competition gliders knowing full
well how some competitors fly - very low and fast-
he was taking a risk to get a spectacular photographic
shot -he paid for that risk with his life -he wasn't
an innocent bystander with no knowledge of competition
finishes.
You seem to make some strong claims about the responsibility
and actions of the pilot, I'm saying it's not all his
responsibility. If some idiot went and stood in the
middle of a motorway (freeway) and got run over and
killed- would you blame the driver that hit him?

In general, it seems to be instructors in the US are far WORSE than
their Brit counterparts. They don't even have to have flown any X-C
whatsoever.

On Feb 10, 5:58 am, Nick Olson
wrote:
At 23:24 09 February 2007, Dan G wrote:

You'd do damned well to listen to instructors - they
know better than you do.

Hmmn not always the case. 200 hour instructor with
Silver C who never ventures more than gliding distance
from an airfield knows more than pilot who flies several
thousand hours cross country and competition - think
not. I have flown with some instructors who quite
frankly scare the sh++ out of me.

Gentlemen it is quite easy -life is a game of risk
-sometimes the consequence of taking those risks is
death - in todays cuddly wuddly lets not do anything
in case we hurt ourselves society this seems to get
ignored.
Said photographer was taking a risk (as was the finishing
pilot who hit him) - he delibrately placed himself
under the flight path of competition gliders finishing,
to take photographs. He had full previous knowledge
of how competiton pilots fly a finish - to say he does
not bear any responsibility for the accident I frankly
feel is quite idiotic. I have seen many people take
this risk at competions - frankly it's behaviour I
wouldn't do -the risk is too great for me personally.

A combination of risks resulted in a death. Both
people were grown men who understood the risks they
were taking (or should have done). A death resulted
-boo hoo - let's grow up and move on, or shall we eliminate
all the risks of death by grounding the entire gliding
fleet worldwide.