Anyone ever hear this from a controller

Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra

"Kobra" wrote in message
...
As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ,
fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Sounds like it was a pretty quiet day and as a result he was being rather
too informal.

I would interpret the controller's instruction as meaning that you're VFR,
and so he's expecting you to make whatever calls VFR requires (e.g. calling
on final for clearance to land). The fact that you're intending to get there
via a route that happens to coincide with the ILS is entirely
circumstantial.

Over the years I've had a lot of informal instructions/comments from ATC,
though generally it's been informal but useful. (e.g. Me: "Blah blah request
joining instructions; please confirm runway in use 27"; Them: "Join however
you want, let me know which runway you'd like though"), though as my local
airfield has become more and more busy with commercial traffic, this is
rarely the case these days. Personally, I prefer it formal; the words to be
spoken have been designed for a very good reason (i.e. to keep them clear
and unambiguous, and thus promote safety) and so they should be used as
such - particularly when informal instructions of the sort that you describe
don't tell you what you actually wanted in the first place.

D.

"Kobra" wrote in message
...

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM).
As I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ,
fly heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.


Did your enroute routing take you over an IAF or feeder fix? If so, you
should have just flown the previously assigned route until you were on a
published segment of the ILS approach. You can begin descent to the
published altitude for the route segment at your discretion.

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra


I'm not an expert, but I think they expected you to fly to the IAF and
fly the full approach. This is very standard, but a bit unusual, since
mostly you get vectors to final, but actually, vectors are the special
case, a full approach is more "standard" that is, it is what you should
expect, and what you should fly if you don't get special instructions,
ie. vectors.

Brad

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra



Trainee controller. We have them a lot at ELM also.

Matt

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Confusion is bad so whenever I'm confused I generally do one of two things:

1. Call ATC and tell them I don't understand their instruction and ask
them what they really want me to do.

2. State clearly what I plan to do and then do it if I don't hear
anything to the contrary.

In your case, #1 might be: "Approach, verify that Cessna XXX is cleared
for a full ILS YY approach." I'm trusting that as an instrument rated
pilot you know what a full approach means.

#2 might have been: "Approach, Cessna XXX is flying present position to
the FAF for ILS YY and will fly inbound upon interception."


Matt

Kobra wrote:
Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Assuming the approach in question is the ILS 15 at KISM
http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0704/05793IL15.PDF the approach is RADAR
REQUIRED and has no IAFs. The clearance "cleared for the approach" with
no vector is defective. With that clearance, you should head for the IAF
of your choice for a "full" approach, but there is no IAF. You can only
get vectors.

I would interpret the controller's instruction as meaning that you're VFR,
and so he's expecting you to make whatever calls VFR requires (e.g. calling
on final for clearance to land). The fact that you're intending to get there
via a route that happens to coincide with the ILS is entirely
circumstantial.

He said he was IFR.

On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:42:17 -0400, "Kobra" wrote:

Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra


It sounds to me like a bogus clearance.

This seems to be an approach with no IAF (at least on the Jepp chart),
implying to me that you should have been receiving vectors to final.
Perhaps the controller taking over thought that controller #1 had given you
vectors to the final approach course, and was confused by your turning of
what he thought was a vector.
Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Here's a rule to follow:

When you want an instrument approach, tell the controller, EVERY TIME:

a) Which approach you want (use complete title e.g., ILS RWY 6)

b) Whether you want vectors, or wish to start at an IAF,

c) in the case of the latter, WHICH IAF you wish to start at, if there
is more than one.


Gets you and the controller on the same page right away. If he can't
oblige your request, he'll work out another.

There is NO REASON to start an approach without this understanding.

By the way, why would you ever head for the FAF to begin an approach?
No approaches ever start at the FAF.




On Thu, 26 Apr 2007 00:42:17 -0400, "Kobra" wrote:

Flyers,

I was flying IFR in VFR conditions and from NJ to Kissimmee, FL (KISM). As
I was approaching KISM the controller asked if I wanted to do a visual
approach or the ILS. Since I was in unfamiliar surroundings and wanted to
practice an ILS I said, "I'll take the ILS."

As I waited for the typical clearance of, "Cessna XXX, 5 miles from XYZ, fly
heading 180, maintain 2000 until established, cleared for the ILS XX
approach." I got, "Ok, just let me know when you want to start the
approach."

Huh!?! I didn't know what to do or say. I asked, "Do you want me to head
for the FAF?" Then another controller came on the frequency and said,
"Cessna XXX cleared for the ILS approach"

So I just headed for the FAF and began to intercept the localizer. The
controller than asked me what I was doing. I was so confused since they
were not using standard terminology. Thoughts anyone.

Kobra