See and Avoid - Birds

The thing that is perhaps most interesting to me about the A320 Hudson
incident is the report that the first officer, who was pilot flying,
saw the canada geese and "made note of it". Why didn't he take
immediate evasive action? It will be very interesting to see the CVR
transcript.

I wonder how much training is given in the airlines related to
avoiding bird strikes. Not the recovery from a bird strike induced
engine loss, but avoiding the bird strike in the first place. I have
spent hundreds of hours in level C and level D sims but don't remember
seeing a canada goose in the visuals or an instructor selectable bird
strike scenario. Are there any?


Andy

On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:08:37 -0800, Andy wrote:

The thing that is perhaps most interesting to me about the A320 Hudson
incident is the report that the first officer, who was pilot flying, saw
the canada geese and "made note of it". Why didn't he take immediate
evasive action? It will be very interesting to see the CVR transcript.

I wonder how much training is given in the airlines related to avoiding
bird strikes. Not the recovery from a bird strike induced engine loss,
but avoiding the bird strike in the first place. I have spent hundreds
of hours in level C and level D sims but don't remember seeing a canada
goose in the visuals or an instructor selectable bird strike scenario.
Are there any?


Andy

X-Plane (FAA-approved) is able to simulate bird strikes. And I think you
can't see most birds when they're approaching. I remember "shooting" a
carrier pigeon, crossing from left to right. Plane was ~100km/h, no
chance to react. Bigger birds and faster planes won't make any
difference, do they?
And: If you notice the birds, do you know how they react?

John

Considerations for all back seat drivers, arm chair quarterbacks, sim
"pilots", and Microsoft Flight aces:

1. Departure procedures from most all major airports are essentially
flown under Instrument Flight Rules. That means the pilot flying both
controls and navigates the aircraft using the cockpit
instrumentation. This requires quite a bit of heads down
concentration looking inside at the instrument panel. The pilot not
flying is the one who is clearing the flight path. This is especially
true during an instrument approach.

2. Departure climbout airspeed is to accelerate to 250 knots. But
even an atypical climb restricted to 200 knots means the jet is
travelling twice the velocity at which most us glider pilots start
sucking the seat cushion up our behinds--and causes the world to go by
twice as fast and accordingly adverse situations develop twice as
quickly.

3. The human eye discerns relative motion. Birds in flight (and
gliders for that matter) aren't easily noticed until the motion is
made noticable by relative proximity. Who knows when, exactly, the
copilot saw the geese, but my guess it was likely too late to do
anything about it. But even if,

4. A 170,000# jet at 200-ish knots, at that point in the climb with
slats and flaps retracted, manuvers like an overengorged PIG. You see
something and make a flight control input you might as well count 1-
mississippi, 2-mississippi...

5. Frightened birds tend to dive. Assuming the flock was initially
above and ahead of the airliner, a manuver to pull up would act to
ascerbate the possibility that birds would be ingested by the
engines. Lateral manuvers only work if you see the impending conflict
far enough out, and a push over manuver with an airplane full of
passengers is counterintuitive.

6. The copilot is a 23-year USAir "veteran" in his own right.
Assuming he flys, comercially, the industry average 800 hours per year
(NTE 1000 hour), and taking into account the 2000 flight hours USAir
was requiring to be hired as a pilot 23 years ago, he presumably has
over 20,000 hour flight time under his belt. And (also industry
standard) one can assume half that time is as the sole manipulator of
controls flying every other leg. His not being a "captain" in his own
right by now is due to his airline shrinking in size and lack of pilot
retirements, not due to inexperience.

7. The two pilots, through combined skill and coordinated effort, took
a dire situation resulting simply from the misfortune of being in the
wrong place at the wrong time and, in the terms of potential for loss
of lives, accomplished something statistically miraculous.

8. If all the second-guessing is any indication, the sad fact is
they'll likely be sued regardless of the heroic outcome.

So how 'bout let's give this line of suspicious inquiry a rest and get
back to the forum's normal programing excitement (like how best to
sand off gelcote/how fast would a glider fly final on Mars/flaps vs.
spoilers)!

On Jan 19, 1:51*pm, wrote:
Considerations for all back seat drivers, arm chair quarterbacks, sim
"pilots", and Microsoft Flight aces:

The reason for the post was not to cast doubt on the competence of
this, or any other, US Airways crew but to start a discussion of
pilot's reactions to nearby birds, particularly very large ones.
That is directly related to the purpose of this discussion forum. A
second interest was the training given to airline crews in bird strike
avoidance and that perhaps should be explored elsewhere.


Andy

O.K. Andy, here goes:

Flying a glider--Go where the birds are.
Not flying a glider--Go where the birds aren't.

What the airlines teach their pilots about birdstrikes--

Priceless!

On Jan 19, 8:08*am, Andy wrote:

Why didn't he take immediate evasive action?

When you're driving, never swerve for small- to medium-sized wildlife.
Swerving may just take you through their altered vector, and is likely
to make you lose control. I imagine that flying an A320 is similar to
driving in this respect.

Sure, you're not going to spin out and take a trip through the weeds
(unless you're flying an Airbus and break the vertical fin off, that
is). But thrashing a bunch of folks around the cabin is not likely to
add much to the situation, and is likely to be counterproductive if
you happen to need the passengers' cooperation in order to conduct an
orderly evacuation.

On Jan 19, 6:21*pm, Bob Kuykendall wrote:
On Jan 19, 8:08*am, Andy wrote:

Why didn't he take immediate evasive action?

When you're driving, never swerve for small- to medium-sized wildlife.
Swerving may just take you through their altered vector, and is likely
to make you lose control. I imagine that flying an A320 is similar to
driving in this respect.

Sure, you're not going to spin out and take a trip through the weeds
(unless you're flying an Airbus and break the vertical fin off, that
is). But thrashing a bunch of folks around the cabin is not likely to
add much to the situation, and is likely to be counterproductive if
you happen to need the passengers' cooperation in order to conduct an
orderly evacuation.


We have had Canada Geese VERY close (few ft) several times just after
liftoff, while towing in Colorado, which REALLY came to mind when I
watched all the rescue efforts of the Airbus. I figure a 10-15 lb
bird would play havoc with a tow plane prop or a glider. Elk on the
runway are a problem, too. I carry a small airhorn (like a person
might have in a boat or at a ball game) in my glider in case the elk
wander onto the runway in the evening while I'm landing. Not sure how
effective it might be, but they DO react to noise and run. A 1200 lb
elk on the ground would be equally devastating as a 15 lb goose at 50
ft.to my Ventus. Any kind of wildlife and moving vehicles (including
aircraft) just don't mix very well.

On Jan 19, 2:03*pm, Andy wrote:
On Jan 19, 1:51*pm, wrote:

Considerations for all back seat drivers, arm chair quarterbacks, sim
"pilots", and Microsoft Flight aces:

The reason for the post was not to cast doubt on the competence of
this, or any other, US Airways crew but to start a discussion of
pilot's reactions to nearby birds, particularly very large ones.
That is directly related to the purpose of this discussion forum. *A
second interest was the training given to airline crews in bird strike
avoidance and that perhaps should be explored elsewhere.

Andy

I've heard the FAA is considering some kind of action against the
pilot (Sully)
For landing in the Hudson. He does not hold a multi engine turbine
seaplane rating.

Sorry--a little late am I to this discussion, so I suppose it's
been sorted out by now to everyone's satisfaction. But I'll add
this anyway:

Flt 1549 unique? Yes.

But as far as "miraculous" goes, I see no evidence of Divine
intervention. I would agree that a better prepared Captain, and a
finer spokesman, than Sullenberger would be rare indeed.

Bird strikes I've had were mostly a matter of recognition either in
real time or after the fact, and not something that could be
avoided. The target is too small and the speeds too great. And with
a ship full of people we don't start jinking on suspicion.

Bird strikes have been deadly in small, fast, very maneuverable
aircraft as well, so it's also not just a question of maneuverability.

I enjoy flying _with_ the birds in a sailplane, where the speeds
can be nearly matched, and I have a close up view of the real
masters of the sky at work. When I am at work, bird strikes are as
much a roll of the dice as almost anything else that can happen.

And the original poster's Q., "Why didn't he take immediate evasive
action?" is priceless indeed. Anytime I can snap in 4 or 5 g's,
I'll happily do it. Flying an airliner ain't one of those times.


Jack

Jack wrote:
Sorry--a little late am I to this discussion, so I suppose it's been
sorted out by now to everyone's satisfaction. But I'll add this anyway:

Flt 1549 unique? Yes.

But as far as "miraculous" goes, I see no evidence of Divine
intervention. I would agree that a better prepared Captain, and a finer
spokesman, than Sullenberger would be rare indeed.

Bird strikes I've had were mostly a matter of recognition either in
real time or after the fact, and not something that could be
avoided. The target is too small and the speeds too great. And with a
ship full of people we don't start jinking on suspicion.

Bird strikes have been deadly in small, fast, very maneuverable
aircraft as well, so it's also not just a question of maneuverability.

I enjoy flying _with_ the birds in a sailplane, where the speeds
can be nearly matched, and I have a close up view of the real
masters of the sky at work. When I am at work, bird strikes are as
much a roll of the dice as almost anything else that can happen.

And the original poster's Q., "Why didn't he take immediate evasive
action?" is priceless indeed. Anytime I can snap in 4 or 5 g's, I'll
happily do it. Flying an airliner ain't one of those times.


Jack

I have a question...IF this youtube animation of the flightpath is
correct, it shows a couple of turns that appear to have been made away
from the airport of departure. I also noticed there is a runway at 90
degrees to the departure runway at the departure end. Here's a "what
if"...couldn't he have made a 270 degree left turn (from the initial
departure heading) and landed on that cross runway? In the video, it
looks like he might have been able do it. I have no idea what the wind
direction/velocity was that day, so my theory might have made for a
downwind landing, but it would have been on dry land...regardless, he
DID do a good job of putting the ship down and everyone walked away, and
as they say, "Any landing you walk away from is a good one. A great one
is when you can still use the airplane!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZPvVwvX_Nc

Scott