China to acquire Backfires?

Michael Wise wrote:

In article ,
Guy Alcala wrote:

The Chinese have essentially become capitalists today. Just like the
Russians
too. They just don't like to admit it much.

Thieving capitalists who invent nothing and simply copy/counterfeit what
the rest of the world creates.

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

Simply making cheap quality goods doesn't equate to
copying/counterfeiting.

Are you saying that after WWII, Japan was the world's biggest infringer
of counterfeiting other peoples' work and/or goods?

Beats me. ISTR a fair number of big-name knock-offs, but that could be my memory
playing me false. But as to copying what others designed, oh yeah, they were
accused of that, going back at least into the 1920s. There was some truth to that,
as well as a large dose of racism involved -- see US and British attitudes towards
Japanese a/c and ship designs prior to WW2. The Japanese undoubtedly borrowed a
lot of ideas from others, but they modified them to suit their own needs and added
some of their own ideas.

Japan does not have a history of openly tolerated theft of intellectual
property (media, software, etc.), and I think most of us would agree
Japan has created (as opposed to copied) a number of innovative or
otherwise excellent products (automotive, cellular, consumer
electronics, etc.)

The same cannot be said for China.

Yet, but then it couldn't be said for Japan either for ca. 30 years after
WW2.
They started out at the low end, as did e.g. South Korea and Taiwan,

Again, you're response continues to ignore the main thrust of my point
and that point is not that China makes cheap quality stuff. My point is
that China steals (something like 90% of all software, music, and
videos) are ripped off copies.

And if power revolved around software, music and videos, I'd be fairly concerned.
Granted, software piracy can be a serious matter, but music and videos are
entertainment. Costly losses to the people involved, but hardly strategic issues.

built
up their industrial infrastructure and design abilities until their products
were able to compete on a world stage.

A country's products will never be able to compete on a world stage if
that country cannot or will not innovate. As an IT professional, I can
say China hasn't produced a single piece of hardware or software that
any network or IT professional would even remotely consider
deploying...although that doesn't stop them from bootlegging everybody
else's work.

Then they will stagnate and only provide cheap labor for manufacturing. But given
China's history of trading and invention, I expect them to follow the Japanese
path. And it's not as if Japan is a world leader in innovative products; they have
certainly established a niche especially in consumer electronics, but most of their
commercial success has been by making high quality but otherwise conventional
products (generally at lower prices, although that's changing) that any
industrialised society could manufacture. Is a Lexus more technically innovative
than a BMW? No, but it tends to be put together better, and generally costs less.
By and large Japan's forte remains incremental improvement and constant refinement
of well-made but conventional products. For every innovative company like Honda or
Sony, you've got quite a few more Toyotas or Nissans. And unless things have
changed, much of Honda's advanced project design work is done in California.

I expect China will follow a similar
arc - as it is, chances are pretty good that any plush toy or piece of
clothing
you might buy was made in the PRC.

Perhaps. But living in the U.S. city with the largest Chinese community
(some 32% of SF's population is Chinese) and in a neighborhood which is
well over 70% Chinese, and having kids in a public school which is about
85% Chinese...I have a pretty darn good idea how to discern Chinese
products and services. Where possible, I avoid purchasing anything made
in China.

I've lived in the East Bay all my life, and went to public school with the sort of
ethnic mix typical in the Bay Area -- my first girlfriend was Chinese/Japanese as
far as her grandparents went. But I fail to see how that has anything to do with
being able to discern Chinese products and services. As far as products go,
reading "Made in China" on the label seems to work adequately for me. I'm unclear
on just what you're trying to do with this skill -- are you carrying out a personal
boycott of Chinese goods and services for political/economic reasons, or is there
some other reason for your avoidance?

Guy

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
My VS duty was with VS-31 on Ike - we re-made our squadron patch in 1981
to
reflect the fact that we had gone one entire year without submarine
contact.

Er, isn't that bad. Can you tell us more?

My VS duty was with VS-31 on Ike - we re-made our squadron patch in 1981
to
reflect the fact that we had gone one entire year without submarine
contact.

Er, isn't that bad. Can you tell us more?

/seastory mode on/

Now, this is no ****.

We spent the previous year (1980) deployed - we started workups in December 79
and the developing crisis gave Ike's crew and airwing reason to prepare for a
war with Iran, not a traditional Cold War deployment with the probability of an
Echo II or a few Foxtrots to keep the "outer zone" defenders well trained in
the art of ASW.

During America's frequent brush wars since WWII, Soviet and other country's
submarines tend to get as far away from the US Navy as possible, for all the
obvious reasons. During 1980, there were few opportunities to cross paths with
subs and in those few cases, our S-3s suffered an embarrassingly common main
computer dump. It was brutally common, and each time, it 'mission killed' the
Viking. More than once, the heat of North Arabian Sea ops up in Gonzo station
downed our birds before they even got airborne, or worse, just as they checked
on station. They brought out tech reps, they tried different procedures (often
just short of the Apollo 13/McGyver-genre of creative engineering), and changed
out hundreds of black boxes, after they failed in the 120 degree weather of the
NAS.

Our squadron patch sported a black and white alleycat sitting on a cloud,
preparing to pounce upon an unsuspecting seaborne mouse with a tiny periscope
on its back, replaced unofficially with a lovely representation of that same
patch with a few differences. The new (and quickly banned) Topcats patch was a
blind, cane tapping cat up in a cloud, above a sea brimming with mice.

The Topcats spent that year involved in every other kind of operation, setting
a few records on the way. One that I recall was 'the longest divert in US
carrier history', a record that has probably fallen by now. During a flight up
in the Persian Gulf, a broken cable in the MAD boom caused the crew to divert
away from the ship, but the only place they could get to, was Dodge. A KA-6E
(God love them) went along as moral support We were already running COD
missions to and from Diego Garcia in stripped out S-3s with gigantic cargo
pods, and ultimately, we were the first stewards of the snow white US Mail
maiden of the sky, Miss Piggy herself. That gave the crew enough confidence to
fly thousands of miles in a damaged aircraft, in a time when getting dip
clearances was tougher than even today. The Topcats did other things, more
directly aimed at the Ayatollah's forces. Glad to have been there to see it,
wondering when we'll ever get OUT of the Mideast for good - leave that region
to the people who want it, if we would pour every resource into finding
alternatives to fossil fuels.. but here I digress.

The Ike did well on that cruise, without a lot of port calls to cloud it's
purpose - we were at sea 351 days that year: 93 days continous steaming, 4
days in Singapore, then an additional 251 days underway, most of them in the
North Arabian Sea, as an instrument of war to drop the hammer on Iran if they
started killing the hostages. We waited that entire year for orders from
President Carter, to go in and pave Iran; what we couldn't know was that the
Soviets had moved forces to Iran's northern border, poised to dart in "coming
to Iran's aid" if we landed a Marine rescue force in Teheran. Christmas brought
the Soviet invasion of Afganistan, chilling the world to the bone. On top of
that, those ****ers in the Walker family were keeping the Soviets up to date on
our deepest secrets. Carter couldn't pull the trigger, but we never knew it.
We wallowed along on a sun-baked flat sea, loading bombs, rigging barricades,
fighting imaginary fires and practicing war drills, for a war that wasn't
coming.

No submarines came, either. I think a couple Topcat crews saw a cowboy on the
surface, but it didn't count as "sub time", so the patch came into existance.
I seriously doubt if any survive.

We had a few interesting moments -- my future Jeopardy "co-star", an F-14 pilot
named 'Burner', earned his immortal callsign by bringing his charred Turkey
down safely, to the cheers of the whole deck crew. Our Chaplain dropped dead
as we departed on our globe-spanning voyage - omen, anyone? The last thing the
Skipper ordered before we left Norfolk was all liberty boats be removed. Not
needed for this one. We passed Africa at 30 knots. Madagascar at 30 knots.
Ike, Virginia, and South Carolina, sailing in a nuclear-powered spearhead
formation for weeks at a time.

I spent the cruise sneaking any kind of ride I could with HS-5, until I had
more than 50 hours and was able to apply for aircrew school. The VS AWs from
my squadron were supportive and went to great lengths to get me ready for AW
A-school, to the point that I was able to challenge the course and graduate
with honors. VS-31's aircrew were a cocky bunch, but they really knew their
stuff. Their failure to find subs was not due to the ASW operators, it was the
balky computers. Think about the date - 1980. Not exactly Pentiums and
128-bit processing. The S-3s computers just plain sucked in that hot, sandy
environment. If anyone could have made them work, AWC Doug Lane probably could
have; it wasn't meant to be. The result was that more and more of VS-31s
missions were SSSC, COD, and tanking. It made my desire to go heloes even more
intense.

/seastory mode off/

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

phil hunt wrote:

Some people wrote ;

Didn't people use to say that about Japan?

I don't know. If they did, I wasn't one of them.

Yes, they did, in the '50s and early '60s, at least. their products were
generally laughed at in the U.S. as poorly made rubbish, often cheap plastic
toys and the like. But times change.

And in the 70s and 80s they said the same things about Hong Kong.
Now it's China's turn.

I wonder who'll be next? India?

Been there ( Bombay - Mumbai ) - done that.

India has great aspirations.

Trouble is - they keep thinking they know better than us ( westerners ). In the UK, the BBC
produced a hilarious sitcom called the Kumars at #42 ( number 42 - street number - we don't
have like 2062 street numbers in the UK ).

The programme made a certain amount of fun of the Indian self-obseession with being right
about everything. That might sound racist. Funny thing is - it was immigrant Indians who
loved it best ! They just found it so funny to see this side of them revealed in its true
glory.

( a bit like - the best jewish jokes are told by jews )

Advice - getting any task acheived in India is measured in units of 3 months. It doesn't take
3 months of course. I takes 1 month to talk about it - 1 month for the Indians to say the
project was delayed for unknown / unspecified reasons - a bit more to explain it was delayed
a bit more - then it gets done ( normally a month late ) in a few weeks.

Oh - and it gets done with errors.

The errors are the fault of *someone else* of course ( Indians are always right ) . If
pressed - the spec will be examined to the bone - criticised and the client told they were
wrong.

*Real story* - a ( very competent ) friend of mine was pressed into agreeing to work with an
Indian sub-contractor on a software project ( Indians are meant to be good at software ).

I warned him about the tricks they play - and - sure enough - he had every single one pulled
on him. The Indian company finally managed to conspire to convince his employer to relieve
him of the project !

My advice - don't touch India with a bargepole.

The Chinese are far more co-operative. I suspect that they are sensible enought to realise
that *don't* know better than us and want to learn - at which point we become redundant !


Graham

In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) wrote:

... During 1980, there were few opportunities to cross paths with
subs and in those few cases, our S-3s suffered an embarrassingly common main
computer dump. It was brutally common, and each time, it 'mission killed'
the Viking.

This, I am very curious about. During several of the multi-platform ASW
ops I flew on in the mid 80's (84-87), the S-3's experienced computer
data dumps and withdrew from the ex. I have to wonder how this problem
could have been left to remain chronic for so many years (given that you
saw it a lot years earlier)? Was the cause ever determined?


...wondering when we'll ever get OUT of the Mideast for good - leave that region
to the people who want it, if we would pour every resource into finding
alternatives to fossil fuels.


This ain't gonna happen as long as the big oil companies (and the people
in power they are in bed with) continue to poor money ("lobbying") our
government to thwart or slow down usage and even examination of
alternate energy sources or do things like give tax breaks to people who
buy gas-guzzling SUV's.



...The last thing the Skipper ordered before we left Norfolk was all liberty boats be removed. Not
needed for this one.

You guys had liberty boats?? Every port we ever went to where we needed
to go ashore via boat, the boats were always of the local chartered
ilk...and not always seemingly seaworthy. I can't recall ever having
used a boat from Mother.


--Mike

This, I am very curious about. During several of the multi-platform ASW
ops I flew on in the mid 80's (84-87), the S-3's experienced computer
data dumps and withdrew from the ex. I have to wonder how this problem
could have been left to remain chronic for so many years (given that you
saw it a lot years earlier)? Was the cause ever determined?

They told us that the computer just plain couldn't hold a load - Mid-east heat,
cat strokes, 18 year old maintainers, it all takes its toll... I never heard
of the same problem in ES-3s, but then they came along later, after computers
had grown up a bit.

...wondering when we'll ever get OUT of the Mideast for good - leave that
region
to the people who want it, if we would pour every resource into finding
alternatives to fossil fuels.


This ain't gonna happen as long as the big oil companies (and the people
in power they are in bed with) continue to poor money ("lobbying") our
government to thwart or slow down usage and even examination of
alternate energy sources or do things like give tax breaks to people who
buy gas-guzzling SUV's.

At a time when everyone else on the planet realizes that personal vehicles need
to be as small and efficient as possible in urban environments, we get to deal
with the new Mercury Leviathans and Cadillac Pachyderms. It seems silly that
so many folks are willing to pour that much of their gas money down the drain.

...The last thing the Skipper ordered before we left Norfolk was all
liberty boats be removed. Not
needed for this one.

You guys had liberty boats??

They came with the undercoating and sports package. Not that I ever saw them
*used*, mind you. Wil can probably tell us if they used them on the 1979 Med
Cruise - I got to the Ike too late to know.

Every port we ever went to where we needed
to go ashore via boat, the boats were always of the local chartered
ilk...and not always seemingly seaworthy.

Singapore had good harbor transport - HK had a bit dicier water cabs. What I
noticed was that over the years, the contracters stayed the same, but they had
newer boats when we returned.

I can't recall ever having
used a boat from Mother.

Hmmm.. I think I rode launches a couple of times - Bahamas and St. Thomas I
think. Wondering why its so hard to recall the other circumstances - perhaps
due to a few painted label San Migoos, I think.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

In article ,
nt (Krztalizer) wrote:


This, I am very curious about. During several of the multi-platform ASW
ops I flew on in the mid 80's (84-87), the S-3's experienced computer
data dumps and withdrew from the ex. I have to wonder how this problem
could have been left to remain chronic for so many years (given that you
saw it a lot years earlier)? Was the cause ever determined?

They told us that the computer just plain couldn't hold a load - Mid-east
heat,
cat strokes, 18 year old maintainers, it all takes its toll...


Makes sense. We rarely had problems with our ASW avionics package not
performing in the same Mid-East heat and 18 year-old maintainers
(although minus the cat shots). Any ideas why the VS community didn't
scrap what they had and go with something which actually worked?



...wondering when we'll ever get OUT of the Mideast for good - leave that
region
to the people who want it, if we would pour every resource into finding
alternatives to fossil fuels.


This ain't gonna happen as long as the big oil companies (and the people
in power they are in bed with) continue to poor money ("lobbying") our
government to thwart or slow down usage and even examination of
alternate energy sources or do things like give tax breaks to people who
buy gas-guzzling SUV's.

At a time when everyone else on the planet realizes that personal vehicles
need
to be as small and efficient as possible in urban environments, we get to
deal
with the new Mercury Leviathans and Cadillac Pachyderms. It seems silly that
so many folks are willing to pour that much of their gas money down the
drain.

And even more silly is a current government which falls over itself to
give them tax breaks for buying such gas guzzlers and which does
everything it can to stymie alternative energy research.



Every port we ever went to where we needed
to go ashore via boat, the boats were always of the local chartered
ilk...and not always seemingly seaworthy.

Singapore had good harbor transport

We were screwed out of Singapore. Our ship took some sort of E-7 an
above vote on whether to give up an Australia port of call for two Asian
ports (Thailand and Singapore). Much to the vast majority of the ship's
disappointment...the vote passed. Of course, we ended up not getting
those two ports either.


--Mike

They told us that the computer just plain couldn't hold a load - Mid-east
heat,
cat strokes, 18 year old maintainers, it all takes its toll...

Makes sense. We rarely had problems with our ASW avionics package not
performing in the same Mid-East heat and 18 year-old maintainers
(although minus the cat shots). Any ideas why the VS community didn't
scrap what they had and go with something which actually worked?

Beats me - I'm just "a knuckle-dragging stupid SAR swimmer, without the brains
necessary to be an Acoustic AW". Heh.

That computer dump problem was a part of S-3 ASW throughout its career - its
interesting that no Viking guys have stepped forward to say, "Hey, our
computers worked GREAT!" - we both know they crapped at the worst possible
time.

At a time when everyone else on the planet realizes that personal vehicles
need
to be as small and efficient as possible in urban environments, we get to
deal
with the new Mercury Leviathans and Cadillac Pachyderms. It seems silly
that
so many folks are willing to pour that much of their gas money down the
drain.

And even more silly is a current government which falls over itself to
give them tax breaks for buying such gas guzzlers and which does
everything it can to stymie alternative energy research.

That is my #1 frustration - I think if we can ween ourselves from 25' long
personal vehicles dependent on gas, we've got the terrorist countries half
beat.

Every port we ever went to where we needed
to go ashore via boat, the boats were always of the local chartered
ilk...and not always seemingly seaworthy.

Singapore had good harbor transport

We were screwed out of Singapore. Our ship took some sort of E-7 an
above vote on whether to give up an Australia port of call for two Asian
ports (Thailand and Singapore). Much to the vast majority of the ship's
disappointment...the vote passed. Of course, we ended up not getting
those two ports either.

That _blows_.

We got gyped out of Australia twice, HK once, and Mombasa ... oh, who cares
about THAT sewer. Did you ever make it into Oz? We pulled into Freemantle
while the Midway scored Perth, but I am willing to bet we had more fun!

v/r
Gordon

"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...
|
|
| We got gyped out of Australia twice, HK once, and Mombasa ... oh, who
cares
| about THAT sewer. Did you ever make it into Oz? We pulled into
Freemantle
| while the Midway scored Perth, but I am willing to bet we had more fun!
|
| v/r
| Gordon




Fremantle would have been an attractive city back then, I was first there
in '86. When Australia won the Americas' Cup in '83, Fremantle was
picked as the site for the defence in '87 and money came out of the woodwork
to 'pretty' it up for the yacht races.


Interestingly, there were stories in all of our media, the last time one
of the CBGs wisited Perth, of all the brothels going onto a war footing
during the visit. Before the last of the sailors left, several
venues had to shut down for the health and safety of some of the girls.
Apparently 5,000+ enthusiastic sailors and marines tends to 'drain' the
resources of even the largest of establishments.


Would be an interesting exercise on the Sydney-Melbourne-Adelaide to Perth
flights, to spot the pinch hitters.




Cheers


Dave Kearton

Dave says:

Fremantle would have been an attractive city back then, I was first there
in '86.

We were there in mid 85 - lovely spot, absolutely salt of the earth people that
made it the most enjoyable port call of my life. It was as if our little
frigate was welcomed home by the whole town, which then proceeded to get us
bombed for several days. I got in a bit of site-seeing; met the local Quokkas
and a freakin giant 'roo (in Murrica, we sort of have the impression that
kangaroos are small, bright eyed and cuddly, not exactly the finger-nipping,
ass-kicking, horse-sized creatures that I met!) and did everything else you'd
expect a squid to do after two months at sea. It was a really cool experience
- local cabby and his wife took me in for the duration of the visit, giving me
a great insight into the culture and the hearts of the Aussie people. It
appears not all of them are as perverted as my friend Dave, but luckily, a lot
of them were.

When Australia won the Americas' Cup in '83, Fremantle was
picked as the site for the defence in '87 and money came out of the woodwork
to 'pretty' it up for the yacht races.

Strange to see that connection - here in San Diego, my son's Elementary School
hosted several children of Aussie racers; there was an extended period of
preparation between the races and some families stayed between them. You
couldn't walk around town without bumping into groups of racers. Saddest part
was the Soviet race team - wanting to compete in this rich man's sport, they
sent a Cup Racer (all-Red, natch) and a small amount of support. When the
races were over and they had done poorly, there were no funds provided to get
them home! We had fund raisers to get them back to the Rodina, which had
thoroughly turned her back on the racers. Strapped for cash, they reluctantly
sold their yacht for the ridiculous sum of $50,000 to the first taker. That
boat had to have been worth 10x that amount... anyway, sorry to drift off
topic.


Interestingly, there were stories in all of our media, the last time one
of the CBGs wisited Perth, of all the brothels going onto a war footing
during the visit.

Who would need a brothel in Perth??? Ladies came out of the woodwork to pick
and choose between us! I felt like a piece of meat, I tell you. It was years
in therapy - mostly just enjoying telling someone about the experience. One
sentence sticks forever in my mind - in a crowded bar, a woman broke free of a
table of her friends, snatched me by the hand and all but ran out of the bar;
she turns and shouts as she runs, "I'm getting married next weekend and my
friends think I should be acting like a nun!" (minor cleanup, slight deletion)
I had looked forward to a trip to Australia since I was a child and it lived
up to every expectation. For a bunch of castoff criminals, they really know
how to toss a party and make ya feel welcome.

Before the last of the sailors left, several
venues had to shut down for the health and safety of some of the girls.
Apparently 5,000+ enthusiastic sailors and marines tends to 'drain' the
resources of even the largest of establishments.

I would think it would be seen as more of a 'massive injection' to the uhhhh
local economy. :")

Would be an interesting exercise on the Sydney-Melbourne-Adelaide to Perth
flights, to spot the pinch hitters.

As I said, with the attitudes displayed while I was there, I can't imagine
hookers getting much business there! The wimmin were downright friendly;
squids, reputation aside, crave someone silky to talk to - I never felt more
welcome.

yf
Gordon