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New Battery Type?



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 27th 20, 05:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Posts: 231
Default New Battery Type?

I bought a CTEK LiFePO4 charger. Not cheap, but I'm getting 6 hours off a single K2 running Air Glide vario, PowerFlarm, radio, Trig 22 transponder and Oudie.
Ads
  #12  
Old November 27th 20, 05:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,741
Default New Battery Type?

AS wrote on 11/26/2020 1:55 PM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.

The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.


Is the battery voltage dropping when you key the radio? If not, or if it's a small amount, it
may be the wiring to the radio is too small or has connection issues, and it shares the wiring
with the SN!0B. The usual way to avoid this is to wire the SN10B "directly" to the battery and
to a good ground. The positive lead should have a fuse near the battery.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #13  
Old November 27th 20, 06:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 600
Default New Battery Type?

On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:32:32 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 1:55 PM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.
The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect.. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.

Is the battery voltage dropping when you key the radio? If not, or if it's a small amount, it
may be the wiring to the radio is too small or has connection issues, and it shares the wiring
with the SN!0B. The usual way to avoid this is to wire the SN10B "directly" to the battery and
to a good ground. The positive lead should have a fuse near the battery.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


I guess it is time to rewire the panel. The mechanic of the previous owner left this rats nest of wires and that may be part of the problem.
Thanks for the constructive advise.

Uli
'AS'
  #14  
Old November 27th 20, 03:19 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jay Campbell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 14
Default New Battery Type?

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 12:22:03 AM UTC-5, AS wrote:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:32:32 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 1:55 PM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.
The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.

Is the battery voltage dropping when you key the radio? If not, or if it's a small amount, it
may be the wiring to the radio is too small or has connection issues, and it shares the wiring
with the SN!0B. The usual way to avoid this is to wire the SN10B "directly" to the battery and
to a good ground. The positive lead should have a fuse near the battery..
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

I guess it is time to rewire the panel. The mechanic of the previous owner left this rats nest of wires and that may be part of the problem.
Thanks for the constructive advise.

Uli
'AS'

As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.
  #15  
Old November 27th 20, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mark Mocho
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 29
Default New Battery Type?

I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.

As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.

  #16  
Old November 27th 20, 08:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
AS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 600
Default New Battery Type?

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.


Yes, I looked at 'OHM's' guides and will follow them. John deserves a medal for publishing this and his other 'How-to' guides.

Uli
'AS'
  #17  
Old November 27th 20, 08:57 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Sinclair[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 41
Default New Battery Type?

On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:39:43 AM UTC-8, AS wrote:
On Friday, November 27, 2020 at 11:01:36 AM UTC-5, Mark Mocho wrote:
I've rewired and/or replumbed my panel three or four times over the years as new equipment is added and old things are removed. Upgrading flight computers, displays, radios, transponders and the like have greatly enhanced the cockpit environment. One thing I have found invaluable is John DeRosa's series of helpful tips on glider maintenance. (http://aviation.derosaweb.net/presentations/) The "Aviation Electrical Best Practices" presentation shows the "right" way to go about wiring a cockpit. If you have any electrical skills, whether in industrial or home wiring, you will find the particular requirements for aviation are different. This guide steers you in the right direction. Thanks to "OHM" for these guides.
As to "rewire the rat's nest": I have never purchased a "new" glider, only a "used" one. In every case, there have been tubing and wiring issues and in each case I undertook to re-wire and re-tube everything I could get at. In every case, I have discovered something that was at least puzzling if not down-right scary. You don't have to be a wizard to discover problems and correct them. Just take it one thing at a time, get everything neat, and you will have a lot more fun come spring than if you don't.

Yes, I looked at 'OHM's' guides and will follow them. John deserves a medal for publishing this and his other 'How-to' guides.

Uli
'AS'


You can check for a bad component by looking for a voltage drop at each component, with mike button depressed........switches, fuses, plugs should have zero voltage drop. Don’t forget to check for voltage drop in the ground wire also. I once solved a problem like yours when I found everything was returning to the battery through a single 20 gage wire!
JJ


everything
  #18  
Old November 28th 20, 02:42 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,562
Default New Battery Type?

On 11/26/2020 4:55 PM, AS wrote:
...I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N.


Uli - Follow the guidance given and track down the voltage drop!
Likely somewhere upstream of BOTH the radio and SN10.
Corroded connector, too thin wire, etc...

Caution: If you go over 15v, you will fry the SN10...
  #19  
Old November 28th 20, 03:08 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default New Battery Type?

On 11/26/20 2:55 PM, AS wrote:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.

The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.

Uli
'AS'


I have some experience with that chemistry. It was in a large Goal Zero
'Yeti' power pack. They ran 12 volts directly from the battery, which I
tried to use with a DC/DC battery charger. The voltage regulation was
terrible, the battery charger shut off from low voltage with over 50%
state of charge remaining. Later, they started offering their own 12
volt DC/DC cable to take care of the problem. Should have been built
into the unit from the beginning.

As others have suggested, you really ought to look seriously at the
panel wiring. But also, you ought to do a battery test on the current
batteries, just because they're two years old doesn't mean anything.
Also, the voltage measuring built into instruments isn't always
accurate, make sure you have a real problem before proceeding.
  #20  
Old November 29th 20, 01:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 483
Default New Battery Type?

On 11/26/20 2:55 PM, AS wrote:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 1:02:00 PM UTC-5, Eric Greenwell wrote:
AS wrote on 11/26/2020 8:59 AM:
On Thursday, November 26, 2020 at 11:19:57 AM UTC-5, wrote:
I have used such a battery since July. Works just fine for me in my ASG 32 Mi with lots of electronic stuff.

/Robert

So there is already some operational experience with this type of batteries, which is good to hear. The warnings about the initially high voltage of 16+V is well taken. I checked the spec's of the stuff I have on and behind my panel and most of it is limited to only 15V.
That would lead me to more follow-up questions for the experts:
- what would happen if this battery was charged with only 15V?
- if the above is not advisable, would the use of an electronic voltage regulator like this one be an option?
https://vetco.net/products/dc-dc-adj...kaAnEdEALw_wcB
- I am not familiar with this type of electronics but reading the specifications of it, I see a 'Ripple Frequency' of 150kHz on the output. Could that mess up the electronics?

Thanks for any constructive replies.

The voltage regulator might cause radio and other interference, adds complexity, and one more
item to fail, possibly damaging the devices it was supposed to protect. There seems to be no
sufficient reason to consider this chemistry, compared to LiFe batteries, unless you are space
limited, due to higher cost and risk of over-voltage.

Is battery space insufficient on your glider?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Good points, Eric.
I currently have room for and use two 12V LiFe batteries (K2) but I get low voltage warnings on my SN10b fairly early into the flight when keying the radio, a KTR72N. The batteries are only two seasons old. I may have some other, more power hungry equipment, like a Volkslogger functioning only as the GPS source, which may have a higher draw.
My goal is to get rid of the Volkslogger but in parallel, I was thinking about upgrading the batteries. However, that seems to be not as easy as cleaning up my panel.

Uli
'AS'



Just to pile on a little bit more, the type of battery you're looking at
is commonly called lithium-cobalt and isn't new at all. Someone at
Boeing thought it sounded really neat, and designed it into the 787.
After a few fires, they 'fixed' the problem by putting them in steel
containment boxes with blowout plugs to the atmosphere.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvkEpstd9os&t=280s

Switching to a battery like that in order to fix what is likely a wiring
issue isn't a good idea.


 




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