When does IFR begin in VFR?

A Lieberman wrote:


ATC came back and said, 43 Lima, cleared to Covington LA as filed, climb to
5000, squawk 1234. I think, by me saying "ready to receive clearance",
triggered the response.

No, he came right back with your clearance because he knew exactly where
you were. It had nothing to do with your being ready to copy a
clearance. Nobody gets an IFR clearance unless the controller knows
where you are.

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 06:08:37 -0800, wrote:

I could argue that "cleared to" is by itself insufficent. Even more significant
is to hear "maintain XXXXX altitude."

Shouldn't there also be a "route" included? (i.e. Cleared to xxx, via as
filed, maintain 6000)




Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Lot's of good answers given. Welcome to the learning portion of your
lifelong IFR classroom.

I would add that if you ever find yourself changing altitude without ATC
prompting or as the result of a specfic clearance (plan means nothing),
something is wrong.

Hey, don't stop filing on those VFR days - it really helps learn the
system without IMC distractions.

Wizard of Draws wrote:
I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
I'm told.

So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
altitude until I was given specific instructions?

On 2/6/05 8:58 PM, in article , "Stan
Prevost" wrote:

Hi, Jeff -

You are not under IFR until you have received an IFR clearance including the
words "cleared to". If you departed VFR (without an IFR clearance and
release), you are not IFR and must obey VF Rules. Once airborne, you
contact ATC with something like "ABC Approach (or center), N1234 off Podunk
Field, IFR to Niceville, request clearance." They will assign you a squawk
code, wait to identify you on radar, then give you your clearance and
instructions (inlcuding altitude). Until then, you maintain VFR, including
altitude.

But see http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html .

Stan

Thanks Stan. I learn something from every flight nowadays.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

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On 2/6/05 9:11 PM, in article ,
"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 20:36:12 -0500, Wizard of Draws
wrote:

So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
altitude until I was given specific instructions?

The salient items of a clearance that tell you you are operating under IFR
a
1. Clearance Limit
2. Route (which could be "as filed")
3. Altitude


You did state that the plan was to "open your flight plan in the air".

If your only conversation with ATC went as you report:

=======================
Jeff: XYZ approach, N123WD
ATC: N123WD, squawk 5547
======================

Then at the time you were given a squawk code, you were still operating
under VFR. You had not received any clearance from ATC.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

Your scenario was on the money, thanks.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
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On 2/6/05 9:46 PM, in article ,
"Roy Smith" wrote:

Wizard of Draws wrote:

I took a short XC today after a layoff of a few months due to real life
constraints and weather. I filed IFR even though it was VFR because I wanted
to get back into the groove of communicating with ATC.
I filed for 5000 going east. On the ground, they told me it would be faster
if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

I was at 5500 when I finally got through since I was VFR, but all I was
given initially was a squawk code with no altitude assignment or clearance.
I assumed that I was IFR at this point so I began to descend to 5000 per my
flight plan. As I did I asked ATC if he had an altitude assignment, and he
came back with 6000, cleared direct. No problem, I pull back up and fly as
I'm told.

So, was I IFR as soon as I was given a squawk and required to fly my flight
plan, or should I have waited to change from a VFR altitude to an IFR
altitude until I was given specific instructions?

You're IFR when you hear the magic words "cleared to". When the controller
first gave you squawk code, you were still VFR. He wanted to get you in
radar contact before issuing your clearance (so he didn't have to apply
non-radar separation rules). I assume when you wrote, "6000, cleared
direct", it really sounded more like, "Cleared to the XYZ airport, via
direct, maintain 6000". Clearance limit, Route, Altitude, always in that
order (followed by Frequency and Transponder code, giving the popular CRAFT
acronym).

What confuses me is, "given a squawk and required to fly my flight plan".
In what way were you required to fly your flight plan? Until you are IFR,
the controller can't really require you to do much of anything (assuming
class E airspace).

Thanks for answering.
Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first. It was
a monkey wrench that I didn't really expect since I normally get clearance
on the ground in CRAFT order. It's been quite a while since I opened a plan
in the air and 3 months since I've flown at all. A lot of rust to work off.

I suppose I should have used the word 'expected' instead of required.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

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On 2/6/05 10:04 PM, in article , "A
Lieberman" wrote:


I would suspect, until you hear "CRAFT" from ATC, you are still under VFR
rules.

Allen

Yep, thanks. There wasn't much chance of actual anyway. Everything was at
12K.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

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On 2/6/05 11:35 PM, in article
, "Peter R."
wrote:

Wizard of Draws wrote:

On the ground, they told me it would be faster
if I took off VFR and opened my plan in the air, so I did.

Hey, Jeff, since you received a lot of answers to your direct question, I
thought I'd take a different slant with your post. In response to the
above quote, consider this article:

http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/189034-1.html

This article, coupled with a "learning" experience I had last summer have
taught me to really ensure there are comfortable VFR conditions for many
miles surrounding the airport before I launch VFR expecting to pick up an
IFR clearance in the air.

Just something to consider for future flights.

Yessir, learned that one back in November during a couple of flights with
actual. Ceilings can vary quite a bit from reported as I found out, so I
won't be launching without a VFR safety net.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

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On 2/7/05 2:47 PM, in article
, "Maule Driver"
wrote:

Lot's of good answers given. Welcome to the learning portion of your
lifelong IFR classroom.

I would add that if you ever find yourself changing altitude without ATC
prompting or as the result of a specfic clearance (plan means nothing),
something is wrong.

Hey, don't stop filing on those VFR days - it really helps learn the
system without IMC distractions.


Filing IFR is too much fun not to do it as often as I can. And anytime I can
have a second set of eyeballs working for me...
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

Wizard of Draws wrote:
Craft is not exactly correct since I got the transponder code first.

It sounds like things happened in two chunks. Within a single call, the
elements will (or at least should be) in CRAFT order, but you had it broken
up into two parts.

First, he gave you a transponder code. You entered that, he found you on
radar, and he declared "radar contact". Now he can apply IFR radar
separation rules, which greatly reduces the amount of airspace he needs to
dedicate to you.

Next, he gave you your clearance. You already had a code and a frequency,
so he just gave you the new stuff, in CRAFT order, i.e. just the CRA part.