flying in snow

In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the clouds that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's snowing, then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger in that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save
pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow?

It can be, yes. However, all of the usual caveats about flying in visible
moisture with freezing conditions apply.

Typically, in a cloud or not, you'll just get a light accumulation of snow
on forward surfaces of the airplane: leading edge of the wing, front of
tires (for fixed-gear airplanes), temperature probe, etc.

However, a heavy wet snow could result in significant rime ice accumulation,
and any kind of snow has the potential for blocking the air filter. It's
important to have all of the usual precautions that you'd have in any sort
of freezing/precip conditions, including a well-thought-out escape plan.

I can't think of any situation where precipitation that's freezing rain
aloft would show up as snow on the ground, but I think it would be unwise to
rule that possibility out. Weather does funny things some times.

Generally speaking though, when you see snow, things are cold enough that
all you'll get is plain old snow, and it will be too cold for it to produce
any significant accumulation.

Pete

The snow itself will not stick but you will find ice in the snow producing
clouds, particularly if the snow falling out of them is the "little
styrofoam balls" type. Sometimes there are no clouds when it is snowing the
flake type. The flake type is formed by moisture going directly from vapor
to crystal whereas the ball type is a collection of supercooled cloud
droplets frozen together.

So the bottom line is that you will not get airframe ice if you can see
where you are going.

Mike
MU-2


"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save
pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the clouds
that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's snowing,
then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger in
that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or
sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Oh good Mike, you're alive!


(see related thread on R.A.S)

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
hlink.net...
The snow itself will not stick but you will find ice in the snow producing
clouds, particularly if the snow falling out of them is the "little
styrofoam balls" type. Sometimes there are no clouds when it is snowing
the
flake type. The flake type is formed by moisture going directly from
vapor
to crystal whereas the ball type is a collection of supercooled cloud
droplets frozen together.

So the bottom line is that you will not get airframe ice if you can see
where you are going.

Mike
MU-2


"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save
pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow
will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the clouds
that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's snowing,
then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger in
that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or
sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

a major concern.. especially if snow is heavy.. is blocking the air filter
intake and forcing use of an alternate air source.. does your "carb heat"
just apply heated air to the regular air intake to the carb or manifold? or
is it an "alternate air source"

BT

"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save
pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the clouds
that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's snowing,
then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger in
that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or
sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

On Thu, 18 Mar 2004 11:27:18 -0800, "Peter Duniho"
wrote in Message-Id:
:

any kind of snow has the potential for blocking the air filter.

I only see that as an issue if you are downwind of an active volcano,
and the ambient atmosphere is dust laden. It's my understanding that
most aircraft induction systems have a spring-loaded door that admits
air in the event of an interruption of flow through the filter
element.

And it feels good!...

966MA was owned by a doctor who I met a couple of times. He and his wife
were nice people.

Mike
MU-2

"Brad Z" wrote in message
newslp6c.36349$1p.545565@attbi_s54...
Oh good Mike, you're alive!


(see related thread on R.A.S)

"Mike Rapoport" wrote in message
hlink.net...
The snow itself will not stick but you will find ice in the snow
producing
clouds, particularly if the snow falling out of them is the "little
styrofoam balls" type. Sometimes there are no clouds when it is snowing
the
flake type. The flake type is formed by moisture going directly from
vapor
to crystal whereas the ball type is a collection of supercooled cloud
droplets frozen together.

So the bottom line is that you will not get airframe ice if you can see
where you are going.

Mike
MU-2


"Teacherjh" wrote in message
...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all
(save
pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow
will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the
clouds
that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's
above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's
snowing,
then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger
in
that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or
sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose


--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

"Larry Dighera" wrote in message
...
I only see that as an issue if you are downwind of an active volcano,
and the ambient atmosphere is dust laden. It's my understanding that
most aircraft induction systems have a spring-loaded door that admits
air in the event of an interruption of flow through the filter
element.

Huh? Many do not. All aircraft that I've flown DO have an alternate air
system; most of the C172-class planes I know of use carb heat as their
alternate air, not a spring-loaded door. My own airplane has a
spring-loaded door, but that's most likely because it's also fuel-injected,
so there's no carb heat installed.

But regardless of how the alternate air system works, it's still an issue to
be aware of. And in all cases I know of, the alternate air system means
unfiltered air. In cruise flight, not necessarily a problem, but if it also
means turning on the carb heat, it means a) you need to be aware of the
potential for the need to use carb heat, and b) you'll want to remind
yourself of the various implications of operating with the carb heat turned
on (like, need to readjust the mixture, fuel efficiency changes, maximum
power changes, that sort of thing).

You don't need to be downwind of an active volcano to care about the air
filter getting clogged.

Pete

does your "carb heat"
just apply heated air to the regular air intake to the carb or manifold? or
is it an "alternate air source"


The former, I believe, though I'll check it out. It's an archer (we also have
a dakota, which should be similar). There is an "alternate air" lever, but
that's an alternate static source.

Jose

--
(for Email, make the obvious changes in my address)

Jose,

Lot of bad information and old wives' tales on this thread. sigh

Outside of clouds, when you are flying in snow it will not stick to
the airframe. Even heavy wet snow will not stick, so airframe icing
is not a problem. The concerns to be aware of when flying in snow are
the very serious restriction to visibility that often occurs. When
flying IFR you may be able to see the ground during the approach, but
not pick out the runway until you are over it. You've got 500 feet of
vertical visibility, and about that horizontally, but you see the
runway from above and try to circle for it. Lots of dead pilots
because of that error. Once you start the turn you lose sight of the
runway and have no visual reference horizontally, so you are trying to
do a circle to land without the requisite vis requirements. It's best
to miss the approach immediately. If you are VFR and fly into snow
the problem is that vis can change very fast and can put you into IMC
in seconds. Otherwise, the concerns about flying in snow are P
static, if your airplane doesn't have good static wicks. If you start
to lose your radios you can try holding your hand, fingers spread
wide, about a half inch from the windshield and move it back and
forth. Sometimes you'll feel the static discharge you get after
walking across a rug and touching metal, as the airplane discharges,
and you get the radios back for a few minutes. It doesn't always
work, but it works often enough it's worth a try. The other concern
is with wet snow in that it can pack the air filter on the engine air
intake and either reduce the air flow or block it. At that point you
just switch to carb heat or alternate air as appropriate for your
aircraft.

You will only get rime ice when in clouds, you will not get it in
snow. Clear ice comes from freezing rain and is another matter
entirely.

Suggest you check out back issues of IFR Magazine for more information
on flying in snow. They've dealt with it at length. Here in Michigan
we fly in snow all the time, it's just no big deal. With frequent
lake effect snow you learn to chose an altitude to stay out of the
clouds because that's where the ice is. If it's snowing, you're fine
(if you are IFR, you may be screwed if VFR because of vis). Runway
operations are a different matter, and getting around the airport may
range from merely exciting to impossible. You may also find that
after stopping your brakes have melted snow which then refroze as ice
and locked one or both wheels. On landing you tend not to try for
greasers as you may have a locked wheel, and it takes a while for
enough friction on the tire to build up to apply enough rotational
force to break the ice. In the meantime you listen to a tire squeal
and you have little rolling control from that tire, so if you touch
down a bit firmly the wheels will get a good rotational jolt from the
runway and break the ice fairly quickly. Just be ready to steer the
airplane with aerodyanmic controls after landing as the runway may be
very slippery and a tire or two may not be turning.

All the best,
Rick

(Teacherjh) wrote in message ...
In a typical spam can (say an archer), which has no deice at all (save pitot
heat), is it safe to fly in snow? More generally, of course the snow will
bounce off and not stick to the wings (right?) but what about the clouds that
are producing snow - will they also produce airframe ice? If it's above
freezing on the ground, and the clouds are very high, and it's snowing, then as
I climb I'll (yes?) climb above the freezing level - is there danger in that
transition when it's snowing? (I presume there's no freezing rain or sleet,
else I'd see it on the ground, no?)

Jose