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Tesla Model 3 and a glider



 
 
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  #11  
Old December 14th 19, 05:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
PAGA (XA^686)
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Posts: 4
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:48:54 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Wow!Â* Terrific!!!Â* A whole quarter of a mile.Â* Let's fill 'em both up
and send them out across Kansas...

On 12/13/2019 9:54 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?

Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDg86sKZMg


--
Dan, 5J


I am coming to Kansas Dan, with the Model S towing 686 :-)
  #12  
Old December 14th 19, 06:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

That's great, PAGA.Â* Don't take my comments to bad mouth Tesla.Â* I think
it's terrific what they've done to advance the state of the art (not to
mention their rockets).Â* My point was that a drag race is a seconds long
event in the life time of a car.Â* I've driven one or two and the
acceleration is truly astounding, but the charging stations are not very
convenient in New Mexico.Â* Have fun in KS and make a detour to Moriarty
if you have the time.

D

On 12/14/2019 9:55 AM, PAGA (XA^686) wrote:
On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 11:48:54 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
Wow!Â* Terrific!!!Â* A whole quarter of a mile.Â* Let's fill 'em both up
and send them out across Kansas...

On 12/13/2019 9:54 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 1:19:35 PM UTC-8, bertvaneyken wrote:
Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?

Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUDg86sKZMg

--
Dan, 5J

I am coming to Kansas Dan, with the Model S towing 686 :-)


--
Dan, 5J
  #13  
Old December 14th 19, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Manley[_3_]
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Posts: 29
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 4:19:35 PM UTC-5, bertvaneyken wrote:
Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?

Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.


I have been towing my 15m Cobra metal top trailer (13.5m Silent 2 Electro) back and forth between WI and FL for the last three years using a Telsa Model X 100D. When not towing, I plan for 3 kWhr/mile. When towing the glider trailer, I plan for 2 kWhr/mile. It is usually less than 2 kWhr, but I like to be conservative.
So with the 100 kWhr battery, and planning to arrive at the next charging location with a 20% charge reserve, I need to find a charger every 160 miles or so. Tesla's supercharger network lines nearly every Interstate highway in the U.S. with average distances between charging locations averaging closer to 80-100 miles. Lots of hotels also offer Tesla destination charger services that will easily and adequately charge a vehicle overnight. For reference, the Model X has a 5000 lb towing capacity. My glider/trailer weighed in at less than 1500 lb.
  #14  
Old December 14th 19, 09:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

Scott Manley wrote on 12/14/2019 10:44 AM:
On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 4:19:35 PM UTC-5, bertvaneyken wrote:
Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?

Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.


I have been towing my 15m Cobra metal top trailer (13.5m Silent 2 Electro) back and forth between WI and FL for the last three years using a Telsa Model X 100D. When not towing, I plan for 3 kWhr/mile. When towing the glider trailer, I plan for 2 kWhr/mile. It is usually less than 2 kWhr, but I like to be conservative.
So with the 100 kWhr battery, and planning to arrive at the next charging location with a 20% charge reserve, I need to find a charger every 160 miles or so. Tesla's supercharger network lines nearly every Interstate highway in the U.S. with average distances between charging locations averaging closer to 80-100 miles. Lots of hotels also offer Tesla destination charger services that will easily and adequately charge a vehicle overnight. For reference, the Model X has a 5000 lb towing capacity. My glider/trailer weighed in at less than 1500 lb.

Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean "3
kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds like the
trailer improves your mileage.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #15  
Old December 14th 19, 11:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean
"3 kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds
like the trailer improves your mileage.


More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused
here.

If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per
mile, apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed
50 miles.

This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we
assume it is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the
distance and will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple
calculation, during that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW).
In real traffic the travel time is likely to be more than that and no
sensible driver will plan to arrive at the next charger with a totally
empty battery. Consequently the averaged power consumption will most
likely be rather less than 37kW.

I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a
hybrid, and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this
is why I'm interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other
information about towing with these vehicles.

I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle)
with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to
60mph by both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally
guestimate travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for
coffee breaks and pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be
matched with an equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs
would also be interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity
appears to be 15% more expensive than petrol.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #16  
Old December 14th 19, 11:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Patrick McMahon
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Posts: 11
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 2:19:35 PM UTC-7, bertvaneyken wrote:
Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?

Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.


I understand the practical implication of long-distance trailering is that typical charging spots are pull-in, not pull-through. This likely means that you need to disconnect the trailer to charge.

I went back and forth from Alberta to Ontario through the US to retrieve a glider in November. This was the first trip in the last 5 years I couldn't have done with a Tesla. Because of 1) pull-in charging, 2) Montanna.

Watching for a trailer kit on a Model Y for my next vehicle. Buy $TSLA!
  #17  
Old December 15th 19, 01:34 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

Patrick McMahon wrote on 12/14/2019 2:46 PM:
On Friday, December 13, 2019 at 2:19:35 PM UTC-7, bertvaneyken wrote:
Is there anyone using a Tesla Model 3 to tow his/her glider regularly?

Curious about the impact on range and usability to go on (European) gliding holiday.


I understand the practical implication of long-distance trailering is that typical charging spots are pull-in, not pull-through. This likely means that you need to disconnect the trailer to charge.

I went back and forth from Alberta to Ontario through the US to retrieve a glider in November. This was the first trip in the last 5 years I couldn't have done with a Tesla. Because of 1) pull-in charging, 2) Montanna.

Watching for a trailer kit on a Model Y for my next vehicle. Buy $TSLA!


Charging stations are being installed in "many" Walmart parking lots, situated
away from the store where cars rarely park. The ones I've seen have plenty of room
to pull-in, charge, back out, and off you go. Other big box stores are probably
not far behind.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #18  
Old December 15th 19, 02:54 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 2:22:32 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 12:59:37 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Oooh, Life is Good! Electric glider AND electric car! But did you mean
"3 kwhr/mile" when NOT towing? Because "2 Kwhr/mile" when towing sounds
like the trailer improves your mileage.


More to the point, units of stored energy and power are being confused
here.

If the battery capacity is 100 kWh and the car gets through 2 kWh per
mile, apparently regardless of speed, then its maximum range can't exceed
50 miles.

This car and trailer normally averages 160 miles on a charge. If we
assume it is running at 60 mph then it will take 2.67 hours to cover the
distance and will be drawing less than the 37 Kw, given by a simple
calculation, during that time. Which works out at 50hp (1hp = 0.748 kW)..
In real traffic the travel time is likely to be more than that and no
sensible driver will plan to arrive at the next charger with a totally
empty battery. Consequently the averaged power consumption will most
likely be rather less than 37kW.

I should declare an interest in towing with either an electric or a
hybrid, and so am interested in how they compare with a petrol car: this
is why I'm interested in analysing these numbers and/or any other
information about towing with these vehicles.

I tow a fairly light tube trailer containing a light glider (201 Libelle)
with a 2 litre petrol engined Focus Estate. This combo is limited to
60mph by both UK road rules and stability above that speed. I generally
guestimate travel times at 3 hours/100 miles after allowing time for
coffee breaks and pertol stops, so am interested to see if that can be
matched with an equivalent electric or hybrid vehicle. Relative costs
would also be interesting, as, on a cost/kW basis, our electricity
appears to be 15% more expensive than petrol.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I think Scott meant that he gets 3 mi/kwh not towing and 2 mi/kwh while towing. The 100D has a 100 kwh battery, making the range roughly 300 mi.

I found a better example of towing with an electric car (Tesla X):
edmunds.com/tesla/model-x/2016/long-term-road-test/2016-tesla-model-x-range-and-charging-while-towing-a-trailer.html

This was a 1,000 mi test towing a 1,260 lb trailer (he didn't mention the weight of luggage, water, etc.). A glider trailer would probably be significantly heavier, making the performance worse. The results were much worse than what Scott indicated, averaging just 1.63 mi/kwh. This gives the 100D model just a 163 mi range (no reserve). A more realistic range would be 130 mi. He mentioned several complicating factors:

* heat (degrades range)
* elevation (degrades range going uphill)
* wind (headwinds degrade range)
* uncoupling trailer (most charging stations are back-in)
* tow speed was limited to 53 mph to maximize range

His average travel speed, including charging time, was just 24.9 mph over the entire trip! And he never had to wait to use a charging station and only had to uncouple his trailer once (you could not pull the trick he did with a glider trailer). You can add another 10 min per stop to uncouple and recouple the trailer, including the time necessary to find a parking spot. This would have reduced the average trip speed to 23.9 mph.

At times he would have to turn off the AC to ensure getting to the next charging station - in 100 F temperatures! His average travel distance between charging stations was just 91 mi. On top of that, one shorter route was unavailable to him because of the very marginal reserves he would be facing. And the Tesla range app does not factor in heat or wind.

The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some locations), but would you want to?
  #19  
Old December 15th 19, 03:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Posts: 699
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:54:36 -0800, 2G wrote:

The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
locations), but would you want to?

Very interesting: thanks.

I'd wondered if hill-climbing impacted range, so that's clarified, but it
does raise another point: I thought that the extra energy needed to climb
a hill would be mitigated by regenerative braking on down-hill stretches,
but evidently not.

I also hadn't factored in the costs of running aircon, but over here we
do have cooler summers than almost all of your side of the pond has.

I suppose the an electric gets bitten in winter too, in the sense that an
IC car gets heating for free, while an electric needs to suck on the
battery to keep the cabin warm.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #20  
Old December 15th 19, 03:47 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,439
Default Tesla Model 3 and a glider

On Saturday, December 14, 2019 at 6:09:57 PM UTC-8, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 14 Dec 2019 17:54:36 -0800, 2G wrote:

The answer is yes, you can tow a glider trailer with a Tesla X (to some
locations), but would you want to?

Very interesting: thanks.

I'd wondered if hill-climbing impacted range, so that's clarified, but it
does raise another point: I thought that the extra energy needed to climb
a hill would be mitigated by regenerative braking on down-hill stretches,
but evidently not.

I also hadn't factored in the costs of running aircon, but over here we
do have cooler summers than almost all of your side of the pond has.

I suppose the an electric gets bitten in winter too, in the sense that an
IC car gets heating for free, while an electric needs to suck on the
battery to keep the cabin warm.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


Climbing hills is only recovered if you also descend those same hills. In the western US, we call it the "high desert" for a reason:it IS HIGH! So, I am going from sea level to 6,000 ft.

Having cooler temps is a double-edged sword: you also have poorer soaring conditions. The high desert is also HOT!

For me, the show-stopper is the incredibly SLOW average trip speed - I want to spend my time flying, not travelling.

IC cars aren't heated for free: the engine must be brought up to operating temp regardless of the outside temp. Mileage drops during the winter even while you are getting for pounds of fuel per gallon.

Tom
 




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