Cheap sailplanes

e wrote:

Kids, younger people, forget it. The kids might have a few bucks to
play with, but the early 20 to late 30 bracket is more interested in
keeping home and family in the same place. With no chance that you
won't be forced to find another job, don't look for them to jump into
something that's a constant drain on their income, it won't happen.
The three families nearest me, all of them, are having a pretty bad
time keeping going, one halfway down the block is being "relocated",
with the normal cut in income. No stability whatsoever, that's pretty
hard to overcome. But it's still only one reason, and not the only
one.

I agree 100%. Of course there are other reasons, but this one is
mechanically deterministic. On the other reasons, such as being more
attractive to youngs, trying to waste less time, etc. one can try to do
something.


--

Michel TALON

The parallel with sailing boats came in my mind just a few days ago, when
I heard in the radio a report about the big annual boat exhibition (Salon
Nautique) which was just starting here. lA manufacturer was interviewed, he
was saying that their production is stil growing, no problem with the market
but rather to be able to keep the production at a rate coping with the
demand. He was not speaking of cheap small boats, but of 40 ft and above
sailing boats.

I have some ideas on the subject as I practised sailing before I began
gliding and owned a 8m boat with which I cuised along the french coasts of
Britanny and also made travels to England and Ireland. My reflexion was
that most of the things that were mentionned in these discussions as
things which may discourage people to start or continue gliding are also
present in sailing and sailing is nevertheless growing.

Gliding depends heavily on meteorological conditions, sailing also. It may
be worse for sailing. If you go to your favorite gliding field and it rains,
you have lost your day but not your money. If you hired a sailing boat for
a week (in the size of 40ft, most people don't own a boat but rather hire
it) and the weather don't allow to make the cruise you have planned, you
have lost your time and your money.

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation. For boats, at least in France
the situation may be worse. In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Gliders are expensive, boats also. The thechnology for building them is very
similar and involves a lot of manpower. A former french boat manufacturer
has even built under license a small number of Cirrus and Janus.

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role. I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30 years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century ago.

Robert Ehrlich wrote:

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation.

Of course you're right. But don't let THE MAN get you down.
When glider pilots ask me why I'm so supprotive of
Sport Pilot, I borrow a quote from the movie "The School of Rock"
"I'm doing like you taught us, I'm stickin' it to THE MAN."


In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Even seemingly small regulations have huge dampening effects. Alan Greenspan
is famous for (among other things) pointing this out to the U.S. Congress.
The use of more incentives vs. regulation to shape commerce is an example of
his (partial) influence.

Overregulation can really impact an industry. The worst is when it
happens incrementally, in tiny steps that don't quite get a radar
return. Over time, airplane instructors needed a commercial
license, and then an instrument rating. C'mon, all that to instruct
in a Piper Cub? Glider pilots needed a commercial license, then
an instructor license, to instruct. C'mon, if someone passed a private,
why do they need to pay for a commercial checkride too
(with no PTS difference except +/-100 feet for landing vs. +/-200 feet,
and +/- 5 instead of +10/-5 for airspeed and bank angle) before
taking a CFIG test?

These incremental overregulations over time gradually hurt the
aviation industry. It looks like the FAA is slowly moving towards
requiring transponders in all aircraft above 10,000 feet. Yep,
that'll incrementally cut some flying. Then I suspect they'll try to
require transponders in all aircraft at all altitudes, eventually.
And each one will be required to emit a unique ID, for "safety" reasons.
Sounds like THE MAN to me...

That's why I joined AOPA (for a little fee).
As the song goes, "Freedom isn't free, it's a buck-o-five."

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role.

Certainly. Every airplane crash of a Cessna 152 or 172 or Piper is reported
on the evening news. The same number of deaths in a car seldom makes the
news.

Two drunks taxi an airliner from the gate, and it's national news.
Two drunks light a building on fire and maybe it makes the local paper.

The knife cuts both ways.

I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30 years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century ago.


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

(Michel Talon) wrote in message ...


I agree 100%. Of course there are other reasons, but this one is
mechanically deterministic. On the other reasons, such as being more
attractive to youngs, trying to waste less time, etc. one can try to do
something.

Lots of other factors, changing attitudes, the way people look at
their lives has changed, dramatically, the lowered incomes for most
people. The financial matters probably cannot be overcome, there is
no way to reduce the costs to even reasonable. Attitudes, most young
people don't want to be part of a so called "elite" group, they would
rather stay acceptable to their peers. People don't live in one place
for very long now, seven years in the same town is average, and
decreasing, no real "roots" put down anywhere, sense of belonging to
any community is lost, or never existed.

Accessability to gliderports, here in the US, there are probably
gliderports within 100 miles of most places, but with people driving
long distances to work daily, getting them to spend even a little more
time in their car is going to be difficult. FOr 25 years I drove 27
miles to work, then 27 miles back home, you don't get used to it, you
get to hate it.

Consistancy in training, usually doesn't exist. "Instructor of the
day" is the rule, with rare exceptions. Finding the trainer and
instructors booked solid for the next six weeks, common. No such
thing as going to the field hoping to have even one flight squeezed
in, it just doesn't happen. Attitude that if you can't afford to
schedule your time in blocks for the next six weeks, you shouldn't be
doing it anyhow. Most people now have to look at what they have for
expendable income on a week to week basis, trying to schedule on that
basis is almost impossible.

Loss of common courtesies, I've driven 46 miles to the gliderport, to
find that the tug was down, and offered a poor substitute for what I
wanted. One phone call could have avoided me wasting 4 hours and the
$10 in gas that I could have used somewhere else. (Not restricted to
gliderports, but becoming very common everywhere.) I don't tolerate
that anyplace else, can't think of any reason anyone should.

And that's only dragging a pin over the surface, not even making a
scratch.

In article 41b1fefa$1@darkstar, (Mark James Boyd)
writes:


I'm writing the Sport Pilot article for Soaring, but EAA also wants one
from me about gliders to go in Sport Pilot magazine.


I have heard (OZ Report) that there is a hang gliding article coming in Soaring
magazine.

Steve

"Mark James Boyd" wrote in message
news:41b3545f$1@darkstar...
Robert Ehrlich wrote:

Gliding is suffering for excess of regulation.

Of course you're right. But don't let THE MAN get you down.
When glider pilots ask me why I'm so supprotive of
Sport Pilot, I borrow a quote from the movie "The School of Rock"
"I'm doing like you taught us, I'm stickin' it to THE MAN."


In fact among things that decided me to stop
sailing and sell my boat, there was two changes in the regulation I
considered as stupid, the first one reducing the maximum distance allowed
from a shelter from 100 to 60 nautical miles, making the direct travel
from
Scilly Islands to Ireland impossible, the second one no more allowing the
same inflatable dinghy to be used both as a tender and as a rescue boat,
and I didn't had place for both.

Even seemingly small regulations have huge dampening effects. Alan
Greenspan
is famous for (among other things) pointing this out to the U.S. Congress.
The use of more incentives vs. regulation to shape commerce is an example
of
his (partial) influence.

Overregulation can really impact an industry. The worst is when it
happens incrementally, in tiny steps that don't quite get a radar
return. Over time, airplane instructors needed a commercial
license, and then an instrument rating. C'mon, all that to instruct
in a Piper Cub? Glider pilots needed a commercial license, then
an instructor license, to instruct. C'mon, if someone passed a private,
why do they need to pay for a commercial checkride too
(with no PTS difference except +/-100 feet for landing vs. +/-200 feet,
and +/- 5 instead of +10/-5 for airspeed and bank angle) before
taking a CFIG test?

These incremental overregulations over time gradually hurt the
aviation industry. It looks like the FAA is slowly moving towards
requiring transponders in all aircraft above 10,000 feet. Yep,
that'll incrementally cut some flying. Then I suspect they'll try to
require transponders in all aircraft at all altitudes, eventually.
And each one will be required to emit a unique ID, for "safety" reasons.
Sounds like THE MAN to me...

That's why I joined AOPA (for a little fee).
As the song goes, "Freedom isn't free, it's a buck-o-five."

I don't know why despite a similar amount of related hassle, sailing is
still growing while gliding is declining. Certainly the medias, TV, radio
and nesspapers play some role.

Certainly. Every airplane crash of a Cessna 152 or 172 or Piper is
reported
on the evening news. The same number of deaths in a car seldom makes the
news.

Two drunks taxi an airliner from the gate, and it's national news.
Two drunks light a building on fire and maybe it makes the local paper.

The knife cuts both ways.

I heard about the Salon Nautique in the
radio, I heard about the Vendee Globe, the one man race around the world,
I never heard about gliders. However, when I started sailing about 30
years
ago, it was almost ignored as gliding is now. Another thing maybe that
sailing may seem most "obvious" and/or "natural" to most people, as
sailing
boats exist since thousands of years, while most people are even not
aware
that gliders exist, as the first ones were built about only one century
ago.


Had a interesting chat with someone who posts here infrequently the other
evening. He had some concern about the plain English language of the sport
pilot/LSA tending towards the draconian. IOW, unless specifically
permitted, it's prohibited, unlike the current FARs, where unless
specifically prohibited, it's permitted. The next revisions may be onerous.

Frank Whiteley

"Steve Bralla" wrote in message
...
In article 41b1fefa$1@darkstar, (Mark James Boyd)
writes:


I'm writing the Sport Pilot article for Soaring, but EAA also wants one
from me about gliders to go in Sport Pilot magazine.


I have heard (OZ Report) that there is a hang gliding article coming in
Soaring
magazine.

Steve
Makes some sense, since there was the recent meeting in Idaho.
Consolidating some functions has been on the back burner for some years.
There are quite a number of cross-over pilots, several in my club.

Frank

When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24 years
later that club charges haven't changed alot.

It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices in
French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
fairly low, and more so for youngsters.

Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do have
low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.

If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
moving away from Paris... ;-)

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Bert Willing wrote:
I absolutely agree with you.
There is a great market out there for any budget above $2-3000, and all
this
2price for racing" stuff isn't interesting to at least 95% of the soaring
population.
And in Europe, gliding for youngster asks for a budget very much like
skiing, horse riding, small motorcycles or whatever a 16 years old
fancies
to do (and it's those 16 years old kid who are the future of soaring, not
any of those 50-years-old-catching-up-with-their-dreams folks) and gets
the
money for anyways.

And you live in a completely unrealistic world. In our world in Europe,
the vast majority of youngsters don't have the money for skiing, horse
riding, etc. Anyways my kids didn't have the money to do anything of
that sort, and still i have a reasonably good job, and so does my wife.
You should stop thinking anyone is a medical doctor or a lawyer earning
several hundred thousand dollars a year. Another thing i can add is that
when i was young myself i could afford flying gliders, and even power
flying. Things have considerably degraded, and your arguments that even
with zero cost, gliding would continue do decline is complete bull****.



--

Michel TALON

Bert Willing wrote:
When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24 years
later that club charges haven't changed alot.

Yes, when i was young, clubs had special prices for young people, and
there were even aids for power flying. I remember that when i began
gliding, launches were 30F, that is around 5$, now they are around 20
euros. Even at that time a lot of "blue collar" people who had been
active in the gliding community were leaving because it was too
expensive.


It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices in
French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
fairly low, and more so for youngsters.


Fine, this is what i have heard several times here, but this is clearly
not the case in France. If i look at the fleet of a club i like near
Paris, Buno-Bonnevaux, there is still a large number of Pegases, and
not many expensive gliders. However the prices are very far from what
you describe in Germany. If i look at the fleet at a well known club in
the alps, Sisteron, both the gliders are quite old, and the prices are
outrageous.


Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do have
low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.


Salaries did not go up very much in the last 20 years, or at least in
the last 10 years. In fact they are very close to stationnary in the
last 10 years. So you wonder that a 25 years old glider which is
basically no more performing than a Pegase is still 30k euros?
Personnally i think such a price is absolutely scandalous, it is
basically a one year income for an academic staff, a software engineer,
etc. As i said, you should be conscient that salaries in the 100k
dollars are absolutely exceptional here. People accept to spend
100-200 k$ for something vital and durable, a house, but for nothing
else.

If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
moving away from Paris... ;-)


Which means that my family income would be divided by two because my
wife would be out of job. I know the story i have lived in Montpellier.
It would be an excellent way to make economies :-(


--

Michel TALON

You can't compare prices in the Southern Alps with regular clubs. One of the
main differences between French clubs and German clubs is that in Germany,
there are no employees in a club, and so no salaries to pay. The drawback is
of course weekend operation only (well I for my part have to work during the
week anyways...).

And if you don't like the second hand prices for an ASW20, you can always go
for an ASW20F :-)) Or get one or two syndicate partners as I do.

--
Bert Willing

ASW20 "TW"


"Michel Talon" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
Bert Willing wrote:
When I was young, I could afford learning to soar because my club had a
scheme for youngsters and wasn't expensive overall at all. Today, 24
years
later that club charges haven't changed alot.

Yes, when i was young, clubs had special prices for young people, and
there were even aids for power flying. I remember that when i began
gliding, launches were 30F, that is around 5$, now they are around 20
euros. Even at that time a lot of "blue collar" people who had been
active in the gliding community were leaving because it was too
expensive.


It's rather the fact that youngster appearently today need LS8's to get
their thrill, and don't like to fly a Pégase or ASW19 which drive prices
in
French clubs up. However, if you look into most German clubs, prices are
fairly low, and more so for youngsters.


Fine, this is what i have heard several times here, but this is clearly
not the case in France. If i look at the fleet of a club i like near
Paris, Buno-Bonnevaux, there is still a large number of Pegases, and
not many expensive gliders. However the prices are very far from what
you describe in Germany. If i look at the fleet at a well known club in
the alps, Sisteron, both the gliders are quite old, and the prices are
outrageous.


Today, you get an ASW20 for 30kEuro, and 20 years ago, you got the same
glider with the same performance for 30kEuro (but salaries ha^ve got up a
little during the last 20 years...). Clubs which keep that in mind do
have
low fees, and clubs with ASW27's often do have higher fees.


Salaries did not go up very much in the last 20 years, or at least in
the last 10 years. In fact they are very close to stationnary in the
last 10 years. So you wonder that a 25 years old glider which is
basically no more performing than a Pegase is still 30k euros?
Personnally i think such a price is absolutely scandalous, it is
basically a one year income for an academic staff, a software engineer,
etc. As i said, you should be conscient that salaries in the 100k
dollars are absolutely exceptional here. People accept to spend
100-200 k$ for something vital and durable, a house, but for nothing
else.

If you don't experience the same, maybe you should get organized - like
moving away from Paris... ;-)


Which means that my family income would be divided by two because my
wife would be out of job. I know the story i have lived in Montpellier.
It would be an excellent way to make economies :-(


--

Michel TALON