Cheap sailplanes

Stewart Kissel wrote:

HA, I bet this guy just can't wait to jump into a
junky 2-33 with some crusty old-timer in the backseat
yelling at him...rather then what he is doing now

Hey, I'm not much older than he is, and we have not one, but
TWO recently recovered, painted, and reupholstered 2-33s
waiting for adoring pilots.

And we have a junky ol' unairworthy 2-22 sitting around that
may just end up getting a makeover soon too...

;PPP
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

I have just read through this thread. I don't think
the problem is one single factor but there is a problem
with infrastructure. Just look around your club, what
is the average age of the instructors? Is that average
reducing? Are the numbers of instructors increasing
year on year? The sad truth is that if we were able
to recruit large numbers of new students most clubs
would not have the instructor resources to train them
and sadly if you don't enable people to see they are
progressing at a decent rate they become disallusioned
and find something else 'more exciting'.
We have been seeing (in the UK) a gradually decreasing
instructor pool. I had my first instructor category
at 18 and until this year I had retained it. Over the
years being an instructor has become less and less
of an advantage and the club where I flew even charged
me more membership that someone who did not instruct.
I flew about 5 hours in 2003 in my own glider from
my own club. The only time I could fly it was if I
went away where I could not be the duty instructor.
I don't think my case is unique. It is absolutely
pointless trying to attract new students until we have
put right the decline in the numbers of people qualified
to teach them, and that means attaracting young people
into instructing. With the cost of attaining an instructor
category, where the potential instructor has to spend
large amounts of his own cash, it is perhaps not surprising
that becoming an instructor is less popular. There
is no doubt that it is possible to purchase your own
glider, with a reasonable performance, for less money
than you will spend on getting a full cat rating or
even an Ass Cat. Given that choice which way would
you choose?
Seeing what happens tomorrow is not a plan!!!!!

At 08:30 04 December 2004, Mike Lindsay wrote:

Todays youth have more disposable income than most
of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are
likely to have more
leisure time and even more money.

Not sure about more leisure time. People seem to have
to work harder
than they did 30 years ago.

Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather
than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every
club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into
the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
if you ask me.

Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the
average age of the
members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70.
It may be slightly
younger at weekends, but not by very much.

We need a new approach.

Ian





--
Mike Lindsay

"Don Johnstone" wrote in
message ...
I have just read through this thread. I don't think
the problem is one single factor but there is a problem
with infrastructure. Just look around your club, what
is the average age of the instructors? Is that average
reducing? Are the numbers of instructors increasing
year on year? The sad truth is that if we were able
to recruit large numbers of new students most clubs
would not have the instructor resources to train them
and sadly if you don't enable people to see they are
progressing at a decent rate they become disallusioned
and find something else 'more exciting'.
We have been seeing (in the UK) a gradually decreasing
instructor pool. I had my first instructor category
at 18 and until this year I had retained it. Over the
years being an instructor has become less and less
of an advantage and the club where I flew even charged
me more membership that someone who did not instruct.
I flew about 5 hours in 2003 in my own glider from
my own club. The only time I could fly it was if I
went away where I could not be the duty instructor.
I don't think my case is unique. It is absolutely
pointless trying to attract new students until we have
put right the decline in the numbers of people qualified
to teach them, and that means attaracting young people
into instructing. With the cost of attaining an instructor
category, where the potential instructor has to spend
large amounts of his own cash, it is perhaps not surprising
that becoming an instructor is less popular. There
is no doubt that it is possible to purchase your own
glider, with a reasonable performance, for less money
than you will spend on getting a full cat rating or
even an Ass Cat. Given that choice which way would
you choose?
Seeing what happens tomorrow is not a plan!!!!!


Good point, Don.

I think the 'care and feeding' of instructors is a world wide problem. It
belongs in the top three issues that need to be solved for the sport to
resume growth. Clubs need to start looking at flight operations from the
point of view of the instructors.

Many clubs in the US require that an instructor pay initialization fees and
dues for the "privilege" of instructing for free.

I once asked a club for a simple favor of a bottle of water between student
flights and was told "we don't have bottled water - here's your next
student". I think it's possible that many of the training accidents are, at
least in part, caused by dehydrated instructors.

If you assembled a group of instructors and asked them, "What would make
your job more fun?" one of the answers would surely be, "Get us more
comfortable trainers". Another answer might be, "Get us a mobile office at
the launch point where student records can be stored and where we can sit
down out of the weather and fill out paper work."

Without enthusiastic instructors, there is no sport of soaring.

Bill Daniels

Two hindrances here in the USA: not enough instructors and not
enough examiners.

As far as instructors go, until recently, one needed to pass four
exams (private, commercial, instrument, instructor) to become
an airplane flight instructor. All this to fly a Piper J-3 Cub
on a sunny day.

Glider instructors needed a private, commercial, and instructor rating.
The private and commercial standards are identical for all performance
tasks except banks are +/-5 deg, airspeed is +/-5 knots, and landing
spot is +/-100feet (instead of +5/-10 deg, +10/-5knots, and +/-200ft).
The commercial test seems utterly redundant to me; one could acheive
an indistinguishable level of safety by simply applying a second
Private Pilot test.

The newly finalized Sport Pilot rule eliminates the commercial
rating (and the instrument for power) for those wanting to be instructors in
"Light Sport Gliders," something like a SGS 2-33 or Ka-7 or ASK-13.

So part of the problem has been ameliorated. It has also become very easy
for instructors in one category (like airplanes) to become glider
instructors. This just takes the signatures of two glider instructors:
no examiner is involved.

Which brings us to the subject of examiners. There aren't that many.
With over 80,000 instructors and about 1100 examiners, you can figure
out the effects.

When the FAA sort of relieved itself of the responsibility of
giving many flight tests, it gave this over to US "designated pilot
examiners(DPEs)." These are private profiteers, vetted by the FAA for
quality, who give (most of) the FAA flight tests.

As related to me by a longtime examiner, this was his story. He said
when this program began, the FAA granted the DPE to whoever met the
minimum qualifications, and was competent. After the first few years,
there was heavy complaining from the DPEs that they weren't getting enough
business to justify the recurrency and "hassle," and many didn't
renew. Over time, the FAA got sick of the fairly high turnover of DPEs,
and became more selective. The minimums were just a start: beyond that
they took only the best.

DPE quality and consistency improved. Less turnover. The FAA was better
able to manage the DPEs. Standards were developed over longer terms,
and the professional DPEs became more common (although there are
still some low output DPEs who essentially do exams part time).

So cost to the FAA decreased, and quality improved. What's the problem?
Well, a four week wait to get an exam is a problem (for some people).
For some people, paying $250-$500 to have a very overqualified 10,000 hour
pilot watch them do steep turns is a lot of money.
Especially if you already have a pilot license.

Is this necessary? Well, no. The FAA with Sport Pilot has moved
to a point where the FAA or a designee (DPE) gets one look at
you for each level (Private/SP or Instructor). Then the switch to
other cat/class in low(er) performance aircraft is easy (just two
instructors, who outnumber examiners by 75/1).

Win win win for everyone. The examiners may actually get MORE
applicants as airplane pilots get sucked into and hooked on
gliders under the "easy transition" rules, and then want
full privileges (in Grob 103 and Blanik L-13, requiring a checkride).
The FAA is happy, because they get to keep the quality of the
DPEs high.

The instructors get more students, getting the same amount of
training but with a result that is slightly better than
just soloing.

The pilots get relief from some checkride pressures.
For the ones that want to be a Sport Pilot CFI in gliders and
in airplanes, this is only two checkrides. No IFR, no complex,
no commercial time, just two checkrides. Before, this was
SIX checkrides. A huge difference...

So if your country doesn't have something like Sport Pilot,
then I can see issues.

Good luck!

Mark

In article ,
Don Johnstone wrote:
I have just read through this thread. I don't think
the problem is one single factor but there is a problem
with infrastructure. Just look around your club, what
is the average age of the instructors? Is that average
reducing? Are the numbers of instructors increasing
year on year? The sad truth is that if we were able
to recruit large numbers of new students most clubs
would not have the instructor resources to train them
and sadly if you don't enable people to see they are
progressing at a decent rate they become disallusioned
and find something else 'more exciting'.
We have been seeing (in the UK) a gradually decreasing
instructor pool. I had my first instructor category
at 18 and until this year I had retained it. Over the
years being an instructor has become less and less
of an advantage and the club where I flew even charged
me more membership that someone who did not instruct.
I flew about 5 hours in 2003 in my own glider from
my own club. The only time I could fly it was if I
went away where I could not be the duty instructor.
I don't think my case is unique. It is absolutely
pointless trying to attract new students until we have
put right the decline in the numbers of people qualified
to teach them, and that means attaracting young people
into instructing. With the cost of attaining an instructor
category, where the potential instructor has to spend
large amounts of his own cash, it is perhaps not surprising
that becoming an instructor is less popular. There
is no doubt that it is possible to purchase your own
glider, with a reasonable performance, for less money
than you will spend on getting a full cat rating or
even an Ass Cat. Given that choice which way would
you choose?
Seeing what happens tomorrow is not a plan!!!!!

At 08:30 04 December 2004, Mike Lindsay wrote:

Todays youth have more disposable income than most
of us could ever have
dreamed of at their age and in the future they are
likely to have more
leisure time and even more money.

Not sure about more leisure time. People seem to have
to work harder
than they did 30 years ago.

Flying has to become something that
youngsters 'want to do' it has to become cool. Rather
than sticking with the
old way of doing things perhaps we should fire every
club committee member
on the planet over 30 and let the youngsters with backwards
baseball caps,
wrap around shades and baggy pants drag soaring into
the 21st century. Us
old farts are not doing too good a job of stewardship
if you ask me.

Er, what younger people do you mean? At our club the
average age of the
members attending on Wednesdays is just short of 70.
It may be slightly
younger at weekends, but not by very much.

We need a new approach.

Ian





--
Mike Lindsay






--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors, there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where "soaring" is taught. Perhaps in Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and there are far more
places to participate and get trained. And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think we learn the art of
"soaring" by more of an osmosis type approach...?? I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is enough...I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then into racing if they so
desire...as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I always get a little existential about soaring, but I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life Blood of the
SPORT....not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better suit up with the "Flame
Suit" Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but still...it is a point
worth discussing.


Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.



Steve.

If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about the problem
with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:

"It's more runways, stupid."

I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same vein, I'll
say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors, plenty
of tugs, plenty of gliderports...

What we need is more PILOTS!

I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at Avenal,
instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork. As I've
harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots at
Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of these
are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the FAA
glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
boosters in our area. One of my other friends with a 182
is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.

So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of pilots.

But where are they?

Steve Hill wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors, there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where "soaring" is taught. Perhaps in Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport, and count in the commute
time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from a gliderport,
and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd pay the ASEL CFI,
you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer to pay the FBO
the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane, too. You'll see the
owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and there are far more
places to participate and get trained.

Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1. And GA airports are
all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There are about 30
gliderports.

And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think we learn the art of
"soaring" by more of an osmosis type approach...??

Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about weather.
And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant: it looks
easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and takes a long time.

I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...

Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared course with a
OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring out how to
get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots of black magic
involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of 300km flights
and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and finally said
"What the heck?" The badge rules are utter spaghetti crap.

or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is enough...

First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN you
get the weather Enthusiasm and skills are good, fantastic weather
is better. You either live near it, or you travel to it. Ahhhh...
travelling to it, there's a rub...

I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then into racing if they so
desire...

True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest flight gets
a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really pushed Hollister soaring
to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying gig to coordinates
of known "elevators", landout charts, graphics of flight paths, some wave
off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout, etc. It was like watching
a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean REALLY sophisticated
stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between HGC for
license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned it up a notch.

This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal. The difference?
20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100 miles away.

as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring. It
really appeals to the engineering side of me. And the librarians
are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember how many links I've
been pointed to.

I always get a little existential about soaring, but I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life Blood of the
SPORT....

Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors, and then theres
instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't have
no stinkin' license or badges...

not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities. But be real he
each requires a more demanding level of endurance. And I mean not
only physically and mentally, but financially and with free time.
It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to get the time
to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot sick days get used...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better suit up with the "Flame
Suit" Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but still...it is a point
worth discussing.

Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let 'er rip! I love
stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the guys in the group to
set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport (you know who).

Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.

More pilots. Period.

As Dr. Fankenstein said: "Raw materials. I need MORE raw materials!!!"

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
not even understand the rudiments of cross country
flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
away.
With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you cannot
find bin Laden.


At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
the problem
with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:

'It's more runways, stupid.'

I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same
vein, I'll
say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
plenty
of tugs, plenty of gliderports...

What we need is more PILOTS!

I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at
Avenal,
instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
As I've
harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
at
Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
these
are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the
FAA
glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
a 182
is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.

So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
pilots.

But where are they?

Steve Hill wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
and count in the commute
time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from
a gliderport,
and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
pay the ASEL CFI,
you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
to pay the FBO
the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
too. You'll see the
owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
there are far more
places to participate and get trained.

Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
And GA airports are
all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
are about 30
gliderports.

And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think
we learn the art of
'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??


Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
weather.
And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
it looks
easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and
takes a long time.

I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...

Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
course with a
OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
out how to
get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
of black magic
involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
300km flights
and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
finally said
'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
crap.

or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits
are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
enough...

First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
you
get the weather Enthusiasm and skills are good,
fantastic weather
is better. You either live near it, or you travel
to it. Ahhhh...
travelling to it, there's a rub...

I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in
any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then into
racing if they so
desire...

True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
flight gets
a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
pushed Hollister soaring
to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying
gig to coordinates
of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of flight
paths, some wave
off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
etc. It was like watching
a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
REALLY sophisticated
stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
HGC for
license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
it up a notch.

This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
The difference?
20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
miles away.

as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
It
really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
the librarians
are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
how many links I've
been pointed to.

I always get a little existential about soaring, but
I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
Blood of the
SPORT....

Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
and then theres
instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
have
no stinkin' license or badges...

not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
But be real he
each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
And I mean not
only physically and mentally, but financially and with
free time.
It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to
get the time
to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
sick days get used...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better
suit up with the 'Flame
Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
still...it is a point
worth discussing.

Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
'er rip! I love
stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
guys in the group to
set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
(you know who).

Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.

More pilots. Period.

As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need MORE
raw materials!!!'

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Don Johnstone wrote:
A very insular view.

I'm not sure which view (Mark's, Steve's, Bill's, or all) you are
referring to. Why not at least hint at the part of the long post you
quoted that concerns you, or better yet, a sentence or two about why
it's a problem?

Please tell me that this person
is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
not even understand the rudiments of cross country
flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
away.

I can't tell you about their instructor qualifications, but I can assure
that the pilots you quoted do indeed understand the rudiments of cross
country flying!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell
Washington State
USA

Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...

The next logical step would be to say that if you don't have at least
100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone else the
finer points of field selection and managing poor choices to a safe,
full stop?

Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven bars, of that
I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery of the skill.
And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.



Don Johnstone wrote:
A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
not even understand the rudiments of cross country
flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
away.
With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you cannot
find bin Laden.


At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
the problem
with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:

'It's more runways, stupid.'

I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same
vein, I'll
say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
plenty
of tugs, plenty of gliderports...

What we need is more PILOTS!

I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at
Avenal,
instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
As I've
harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
at
Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
these
are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the
FAA
glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
a 182
is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.

So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
pilots.

But where are they?

Steve Hill wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
and count in the commute
time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from
a gliderport,
and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
pay the ASEL CFI,
you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
to pay the FBO
the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
too. You'll see the
owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
there are far more
places to participate and get trained.

Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
And GA airports are
all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
are about 30
gliderports.

And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think
we learn the art of
'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??


Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
weather.
And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
it looks
easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and
takes a long time.

I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...

Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
course with a
OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
out how to
get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
of black magic
involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
300km flights
and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
finally said
'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
crap.

or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits
are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
enough...

First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
you
get the weather Enthusiasm and skills are good,
fantastic weather
is better. You either live near it, or you travel
to it. Ahhhh...
travelling to it, there's a rub...

I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in
any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then into
racing if they so
desire...

True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
flight gets
a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
pushed Hollister soaring
to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying
gig to coordinates
of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of flight
paths, some wave
off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
etc. It was like watching
a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
REALLY sophisticated
stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
HGC for
license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
it up a notch.

This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
The difference?
20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
miles away.

as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
It
really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
the librarians
are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
how many links I've
been pointed to.

I always get a little existential about soaring, but
I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
Blood of the
SPORT....

Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
and then theres
instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
have
no stinkin' license or badges...

not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
But be real he
each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
And I mean not
only physically and mentally, but financially and with
free time.
It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to
get the time
to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
sick days get used...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better
suit up with the 'Flame
Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
still...it is a point
worth discussing.

Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
'er rip! I love
stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
guys in the group to
set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
(you know who).

Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.

More pilots. Period.

As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need MORE
raw materials!!!'

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Ah, you really don't need to be X-C pilot to teach the fundamentals of
flight. In fact, so long as an instructor is dedicated to his art, that
is, teaching, he can take most students quite far without any X-C
experience of his own.

Is he a better instructor for having done it himself? Of course, and so
I would encourage him to expand his own horizons. But I wouldn't be too
hasty to disqualify him because he has little or no X-C experience...

The next logical step would be to say that if you don't have at least
100 land outs, how can you really expect to teach someone else the
finer points of field selection and managing poor choices to a safe,
full stop?

Bella Karoli never did a full release move on the uneven bars, of that
I'm sure. But there were few who could exceed his mastery of the skill.
And his ability to communicate it effectively to others.



Don Johnstone wrote:
A very insular view. Please tell me that this person
is not a qualified instructor. Having someone who does
not even understand the rudiments of cross country
flying is a little scary, even if it is 5000 miles
away.
With this sort of attitude I am not surprised you cannot
find bin Laden.


At 14:00 15 December 2004, Mark James Boyd wrote:
If you ever read Phil Boyer's (AOPA guy) article about
the problem
with too much airplane traffic, he wrote:

'It's more runways, stupid.'

I laughed my ass off when I read that. So in the same
vein, I'll
say US soaring has plenty of gliders, plenty of instructors,
plenty
of tugs, plenty of gliderports...

What we need is more PILOTS!

I've noticed as we are slowly getting more pilots at
Avenal,
instructors are slowly emerging from the woodwork.
As I've
harped soaring, three of my friends have become towpilots
at
Hollister, and all have soloed or licensed. Two of
these
are eager to become SP glider instructors. Heck, the
FAA
glider guy in our area has become one of the more supportive
boosters in our area. One of my other friends with
a 182
is eying a schweizer towhook I bought.

So we are definitely ready for any huge influxes of
pilots.

But where are they?

Steve Hill wrote:
Bill Daniels wrote: Without enthusiastic instructors,
there is no sport of
soaring.

I guess my only two cents to that comment Bill...is
that I have yet to hear
of many clubs where 'soaring' is taught. Perhaps in
Europe, but not in the
U.S. Here is seems that CFIG's have their hands full
teaching people to
operate the basic training glider ie 2-33 or Blanik
to their version of
passing the Practical Test Standards. For virtually
anyone wanting to fly
sailplanes, it is far more time efficient to simply
become an ASEL private
pilot and then transition to gliders, than it is to
just pursue a Private
Glider license, I believe.

Depends. If you live 100 miles from a gliderport,
and count in the commute
time, this is perhaps true. If you live 20 miles from
a gliderport,
and you offer to pay the CFIG the same rate as you'd
pay the ASEL CFI,
you'll get a glider rating in a jiffy. Oh, and offer
to pay the FBO
the same hourly rate as you would for an airplane,
too. You'll see the
owner snap to attention. Free donuts even.

You certainly can schedule time much more easily and
there are far more
places to participate and get trained.

Absolutely. ASEL vs. glider instructors is 30:1.
And GA airports are
all around. 300 in calif. (I've been to 250). There
are about 30
gliderports.

And really ...honestly...without
meaning to offend all the CFIG's, don't you sorta think
we learn the art of
'soaring' by more of an osmosis type approach...??


Soaring, yes. Gliding, no. Soaring is heavily about
weather.
And learning soaring weather is like eating an elephant:
it looks
easy from a distance, but up close it gets messy, and
takes a long time.

I think we teach people
the basics, but in most clubs I think you'd be hard
to pressed to find an
instructor with a Gold Badge under his belt...

Hahaha...I've done a 300km flight. But on a predeclared
course with a
OO and a logger that worked? No way! C'mon, figuring
out how to
get a Gold badge should be a license in itself! Lots
of black magic
involved. Who was the instructor who had dozens of
300km flights
and then found a 1-34 lying around with a logger and
finally said
'What the heck?' The badge rules are utter spaghetti
crap.

or one who loves cross country
flying...I know there are places where those traits
are more common, but I'm
not sure if just having enthusiastic instructors is
enough...

First you get the money, then you get the power, THEN
you
get the weather Enthusiasm and skills are good,
fantastic weather
is better. You either live near it, or you travel
to it. Ahhhh...
travelling to it, there's a rub...

I've thought
for some time now, that for the sport to flourish in
any way, what we really
need is more of a two stepped teaching program. One
in which the basic PTS
is taught and tested to....and then more of an advanced
instructor for
taking people into cross country soaring and then into
racing if they so
desire...

True. I liked the Hollister Mad Dash idea. The longest
flight gets
a free retrieve. I think this (local) award really
pushed Hollister soaring
to an amazing level. It went from a pretty local flying
gig to coordinates
of known 'elevators', landout charts, graphics of flight
paths, some wave
off the back of peaks, the Panoche remote landout,
etc. It was like watching
a group chart out and conquer the North Pole. I mean
REALLY sophisticated
stuff, and a very lively and energetic bunch. Between
HGC for
license, and BASA for soaring, Hollister really turned
it up a notch.

This despite being 50%-80% more expensive than Avenal.
The difference?
20 miles from a huge million plus population vs. 100
miles away.

as it is, we basically teach ourselves and learn from
those above
us who are generous enough to act as mentors...Eric
Greenwell, Rudy Alleman,
Gary Boggs all those sort up here in Washington and
Oregon who patiently
answer all my dumb questions and encourage me to try...the
ones who share
their knowledge...that's what we need more of...

I'm astounded by how much study is rewarded in soaring.
It
really appeals to the engineering side of me. And
the librarians
are also often the authors. I'm trying to remember
how many links I've
been pointed to.

I always get a little existential about soaring, but
I think if it's going
to change, that Instructors have to become the Life
Blood of the
SPORT....

Broaden your mind, grasshopper. There's Instructors,
and then theres
instructors. FAA shmeffaaa. Many of my mentors didn't
have
no stinkin' license or badges...

not just the Practical Test Standards side of things...but
active
involved members of the sport of soaring. the Sport
of Cross Country Soaring
and the Sport of Sailplane Racing...

License, X-C, and racing are increasing capabilities.
But be real he
each requires a more demanding level of endurance.
And I mean not
only physically and mentally, but financially and with
free time.
It's not easy for the (non-retired) average pilot to
get the time
to go soaring. We all know how most soaring pilot
sick days get used...

I guess for the first time in a long while I better
suit up with the 'Flame
Suit' Mark Jame s Boyd always carries with him....but
still...it is a point
worth discussing.

Hahaha...I just paint my body with asbestos and let
'er rip! I love
stirring a little poopoo once in a while to get the
guys in the group to
set out some stronger opinions. Am I a troll? Perhaps...
Even Lennie (God bless him) is important,
because he's just like one of the guys at YOUR gliderport
(you know who).

Be Gentle...it's my first negative comment.

More pilots. Period.

As Dr. Fankenstein said: 'Raw materials. I need MORE
raw materials!!!'

--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd