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Question For Old Naval Aviators



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 21st 07, 07:16 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
W. D. Allen
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Posts: 21
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

Just finished Jim Armstrong's book, "From POW to Blue Angel", about
Commander Dusty Rhodes, who introduced the Blue Angels to jets. Interesting
book, especially for old naval aviators.

But, here's a question for tail hookers of half a century ago. On page 282
Armstrong writes, "...a Twin Beech landed [on the USS Philippine Sea
returning to CONUS from Korea in early 1951] with a welcome COD load...."
I'm guessing he is referring to an SNB. Does anyone know if SNBs were ever
used for COD deliveries on carriers in the early 1950s? If so, were they
reinforced for tailhook landings? I know a C-130 has been landed on a Kitty
Hawk class carrier, but doubt an SNB could be make sturdy enough to do the
same.

Looking forward to some answers from those who know.

WDA

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  #2  
Old February 21st 07, 08:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Mike Kanze
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Posts: 114
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

If it was a SNB (the old "Secret Navy Bomber") / C-45, it was likely "deck landed," i.e., recovered without arrestment. The SNB stall speed was low enough that any birdfarm could generate sufficient wind over the deck for a safe, non-arrested recovery.

I can't recall the SNB's structural particulars, but I seriously doubt that it was stressed sufficiently to allow for a tailhook. The SNB was designed and developed in the late 1930s as a landplane, and not as a carrier aircraft.

My very first logbook entry was for a 1969 hop in a VT-10 UC-45J. Above the passenger entrance door was stenciled, "NFO Trainer - Built 1943."

--
Mike Kanze (not an old Naval aviator)

"...I've told my Democratic friends, if nothing else, just keep your mouths shut and just let [we Republicans] self-destruct. But they won't even let us do that."

- Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-Neb.)

"W. D. Allen" wrote in message ...
Just finished Jim Armstrong's book, "From POW to Blue Angel", about
Commander Dusty Rhodes, who introduced the Blue Angels to jets. Interesting
book, especially for old naval aviators.

But, here's a question for tail hookers of half a century ago. On page 282
Armstrong writes, "...a Twin Beech landed [on the USS Philippine Sea
returning to CONUS from Korea in early 1951] with a welcome COD load...."
I'm guessing he is referring to an SNB. Does anyone know if SNBs were ever
used for COD deliveries on carriers in the early 1950s? If so, were they
reinforced for tailhook landings? I know a C-130 has been landed on a Kitty
Hawk class carrier, but doubt an SNB could be make sturdy enough to do the
same.

Looking forward to some answers from those who know.

WDA

end



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  #3  
Old February 22nd 07, 02:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
vincent p. norris
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Posts: 122
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

....... doubt an SNB could be make sturdy enough to do the
same.


I picked up a few dozen hours in SNBs and JRBs(same airplane,
essentially) while a forward air controller with a Marine infantry
battalion, ca. 1953-4. I suspect that catching the wire would pull
the tail off the airplane.

vince norris
  #4  
Old February 22nd 07, 11:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Charlie Wolf
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Posts: 20
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

I recall a landing we completed on USS Enterprise in Tonkin Gulf. (I
was C-1A aircrew). The ship didn't have the 4-wire strung, and there
was terrific wind over the deck. The LSO wasn't real practiced on the
cut lights for aircraft that actually cut the throttles, and he gave
pilot the cut lights just a little too early. We settled to the deck
and coasted to a halt. The pilot actually elected to utilize brakes
instead of waiting to catch the wire. The tail hook barely engaged
the 3 wire. Yellow shirt told me we barely lifted it off of the deck.

Regards,

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:16:39 -0800, "W. D. Allen"
wrote:

Just finished Jim Armstrong's book, "From POW to Blue Angel", about
Commander Dusty Rhodes, who introduced the Blue Angels to jets. Interesting
book, especially for old naval aviators.

But, here's a question for tail hookers of half a century ago. On page 282
Armstrong writes, "...a Twin Beech landed [on the USS Philippine Sea
returning to CONUS from Korea in early 1951] with a welcome COD load...."
I'm guessing he is referring to an SNB. Does anyone know if SNBs were ever
used for COD deliveries on carriers in the early 1950s? If so, were they
reinforced for tailhook landings? I know a C-130 has been landed on a Kitty
Hawk class carrier, but doubt an SNB could be make sturdy enough to do the
same.

Looking forward to some answers from those who know.

WDA

end



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  #5  
Old February 23rd 07, 07:26 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
W. D. Allen
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Posts: 21
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

Taxied up to the One Wire, right?

WDA

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  #6  
Old February 23rd 07, 08:10 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Flashnews
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Posts: 42
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

If the airwing was sent ashore and the deck left reasonably empty the C-1
COD's often deck landed and deck departed while the carriers were in port so
the arresting crews did not have to be mobilized from liberty. Leaving one
or two wires working just made things smoother but a shift had to work. In
all this enabled the ships crew to cycle, the mail to be delivered, the ship
to be on a liberty schedule, and the staff pukes to get their flight time.








"Charlie Wolf" wrote in message
...
I recall a landing we completed on USS Enterprise in Tonkin Gulf. (I
was C-1A aircrew). The ship didn't have the 4-wire strung, and there
was terrific wind over the deck. The LSO wasn't real practiced on the
cut lights for aircraft that actually cut the throttles, and he gave
pilot the cut lights just a little too early. We settled to the deck
and coasted to a halt. The pilot actually elected to utilize brakes
instead of waiting to catch the wire. The tail hook barely engaged
the 3 wire. Yellow shirt told me we barely lifted it off of the deck.

Regards,

On Wed, 21 Feb 2007 10:16:39 -0800, "W. D. Allen"
wrote:

Just finished Jim Armstrong's book, "From POW to Blue Angel", about
Commander Dusty Rhodes, who introduced the Blue Angels to jets.
Interesting
book, especially for old naval aviators.

But, here's a question for tail hookers of half a century ago. On page 282
Armstrong writes, "...a Twin Beech landed [on the USS Philippine Sea
returning to CONUS from Korea in early 1951] with a welcome COD load...."
I'm guessing he is referring to an SNB. Does anyone know if SNBs were ever
used for COD deliveries on carriers in the early 1950s? If so, were they
reinforced for tailhook landings? I know a C-130 has been landed on a
Kitty
Hawk class carrier, but doubt an SNB could be make sturdy enough to do the
same.

Looking forward to some answers from those who know.

WDA

end



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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  #7  
Old February 23rd 07, 09:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
[email protected]
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Posts: 39
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

On Fri, 23 Feb 2007 19:10:05 GMT, "Flashnews"
wrote:

If the airwing was sent ashore and the deck left reasonably empty the C-1
COD's often deck landed and deck departed while the carriers were in port so
the arresting crews did not have to be mobilized from liberty. Leaving one
or two wires working just made things smoother but a shift had to work. In
all this enabled the ships crew to cycle, the mail to be delivered, the ship
to be on a liberty schedule, and the staff pukes to get their flight time.


What kind of weight did a C-1 fly at?

I just looked at my S-2D/E/G NATOPS. At 23,000 lb., standard day,
zero headwind, takeoff roll was just under 1000', so a deck run at
anchor might be possible (but would be interesting). The same
aircraft on a 99 kt. approach (full flaps), 90 kt. touchdown would
have a landing roll of almost 2500 ft. That would seem to preclude
non-arrested landings at anchor.

Of course if the COD were substantially lighter the take off run would
be less. And a lighter weight would mean a lower landing speed.
Making a fast "interpolation" taking the weight to 19,000 lbs. cuts
the distance to about 2100 ft. To get under 1000' requires between
35-40 kts. of headwind.

To get 1000 feet or follout you'd have to land a wheels length ahead
of the rounddown. I don't think, even then, a 27C had the deck length
to do it; maybe a FORESTAL did.

While the S-2 is probably "dirtier" than a C-1 I wonder if it would
make that much difference at low speeds.

And even under the best of circumstance God forbid you have a problem.

Bill Kambic, former Stoof IP

Veteran: VT-28, VS-27, VS-30, VS-73
Bill Kambic
Haras Lucero, Kingston, TN
Mangalarga Marchador: Uma Raça, Uma Paixão
  #8  
Old February 24th 07, 01:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Mike Weeks
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 61
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

On Feb 21, 10:16?am, "W. D. Allen" wrote:
Just finished Jim Armstrong's book, "From POW to Blue Angel", about
Commander Dusty Rhodes, who introduced the Blue Angels to jets. Interesting
book, especially for old naval aviators.

But, here's a question for tail hookers of half a century ago. On page 282
Armstrong writes, "...a Twin Beech landed [on the USS Philippine Sea
returning to CONUS from Korea in early 1951] with a welcome COD load...."
I'm guessing he is referring to an SNB. Does anyone know if SNBs were ever
used for COD deliveries on carriers in the early 1950s? If so, were they
reinforced for tailhook landings? I know a C-130 has been landed on a Kitty
Hawk class carrier, but doubt an SNB could be make sturdy enough to do the
same.

Looking forward to some answers from those who know.


As written the passage brings up even more questions:

CV-47 PS didn't return to the US "in early 1951". Early in '51 she
operating off Korea, first w/ CVG-11, then in late March swapped -11
for CVG-2, and she doesn't get back to the WC until June 1951.

If the time period should simply be, say, mid-'51 there's still the
question of a straight deck and those air group birds sitting forward,
even behind the barrier. Even if a good number planes were off-loaded
as Atsugi for use by an incoming CVG, there still would have been the
loading of others to be returned to the states. Going to put a non-
hook bird down on a deck w/ no exit point?

And where would the event have taken place -- off Hawaii, off Guam?
According the Bob Cressman article in the Fall '88 issue of _The
Hook_, in a history of the P.S., she made a bee-line straight to
Alameda, beating the transit record of Boxer (CV-21) from 1950 by 5
1/2 hours.

I haven't seen the book yet, but looking forward to at least looking a
copy over. In addition I'm going to check if there's a copy of a PS
1950-51 cruise book in the THA library next week.

MW

  #9  
Old February 24th 07, 08:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
W. D. Allen
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 21
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

In the late 1950s even when we were moored at the quay in Yokosuka the SIOP
had us being catapulted with full fuel load and shape. Never tried it for
real of course but if the gong had ever been struck we would have learned
quickly that it was definitely possible to catapult aircraft from a moored
carrier. Our concern as pilots was if we could do it and fly away!

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  #10  
Old February 24th 07, 08:40 PM posted to rec.aviation.military.naval
Leanne
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Posts: 9
Default Question For Old Naval Aviators

In the mid 50's, an AD, A1 for the new kids, made a free deck launch off the
Midway while at anchor in the bay off Sangley Point. An other maneuver that
was used as operation pinwheel when going into the dry dock in Yokosuka in
the same era.

Leanne

"W. D. Allen" wrote in message
...
In the late 1950s even when we were moored at the quay in Yokosuka the
SIOP had us being catapulted with full fuel load and shape. Never tried it
for real of course but if the gong had ever been struck we would have
learned quickly that it was definitely possible to catapult aircraft from
a moored carrier. Our concern as pilots was if we could do it and fly
away!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


 




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