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Too much air in the gas tank??



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 3rd 21, 02:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
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Posts: 546
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...?MailingID=604

If this was a "safe, off-airport landing", I'd sure hate to see a
dangerous off-airport crash. Anytime you rip a wing off, I think that
crosses the line between the two.
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  #2  
Old May 3rd 21, 03:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

"Aircraft has sustained some damage..." is a masterful understatement for a totaled aircraft. But I have to ask: what exactly is the point of a hydrogen powered airplane? 96% of commercial hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, why not just use the fossil fuels? To fleece ignorant investors I'd assume, but still....
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 6:58:29 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...?MailingID=604

If this was a "safe, off-airport landing", I'd sure hate to see a
dangerous off-airport crash. Anytime you rip a wing off, I think that
crosses the line between the two.

  #3  
Old May 3rd 21, 04:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

On 5/3/21 8:59 AM, jfitch wrote:
"Aircraft has sustained some damage..." is a masterful understatement for a totaled aircraft. But I have to ask: what exactly is the point of a hydrogen powered airplane? 96% of commercial hydrogen is produced from fossil fuels, why not just use the fossil fuels? To fleece ignorant investors I'd assume, but still....
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 6:58:29 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...?MailingID=604

If this was a "safe, off-airport landing", I'd sure hate to see a
dangerous off-airport crash. Anytime you rip a wing off, I think that
crosses the line between the two.


It's not just ignorant investors getting fleeced, unwilling taxpayers
are the targets of these scams thanks to ignorant governments.

But some of these new projects are truly revolutionary. Take the ASKA.
Please. Here you have a car that fits in your garage, electric motors
in the wheels to run around town, and for longer trips, just push a
button and it unfolds into marvelous flying machine. For the same price
as a nice motorglider, you get six engines instead of one, with a 250
mile range, beating even a Jeta. And it does the vertical takeoff,
eliminating that annoying trip to the airport. This baby's going to be
flying next year. Since not even lithium batteries last forever, it's
got a dirty old ICE engine, but with the ever popular hydrogen option to
keep the greenie weenies happy. It's something George Jetson never
could have dreamed of. Just hope it meets California emission standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TGVSoejkW4

  #4  
Old May 3rd 21, 07:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

On Mon, 03 May 2021 09:22:58 -0600, kinsell wrote:

On 5/3/21 8:59 AM, jfitch wrote:
"Aircraft has sustained some damage..." is a masterful understatement
for a totaled aircraft. But I have to ask: what exactly is the point of
a hydrogen powered airplane? 96% of commercial hydrogen is produced
from fossil fuels, why not just use the fossil fuels? To fleece
ignorant investors I'd assume, but still....
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 6:58:29 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ogen-test-bed-

crashes-after-off-airport-landing/?MailingID=604

If this was a "safe, off-airport landing", I'd sure hate to see a
dangerous off-airport crash. Anytime you rip a wing off, I think that
crosses the line between the two.


It's not just ignorant investors getting fleeced, unwilling taxpayers
are the targets of these scams thanks to ignorant governments.

But some of these new projects are truly revolutionary. Take the ASKA.
Please. Here you have a car that fits in your garage, electric motors
in the wheels to run around town, and for longer trips, just push a
button and it unfolds into marvelous flying machine. For the same price
as a nice motorglider, you get six engines instead of one, with a 250
mile range, beating even a Jeta. And it does the vertical takeoff,
eliminating that annoying trip to the airport. This baby's going to be
flying next year. Since not even lithium batteries last forever, it's
got a dirty old ICE engine, but with the ever popular hydrogen option to
keep the greenie weenies happy. It's something George Jetson never
could have dreamed of. Just hope it meets California emission
standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TGVSoejkW4


Design, build prototype, test fly, certify, scale up into production in 5
years with apparently no hardware to show off yet? Really?

.... and there's always Alauda, https://airspeeder.com/ whose only visible
progress is a crash in 2019 that attracted the AAIB's attention and
generated a scathing report from them, AAIB-25876, last year.

Meanwhile, Joby Aviation say they've been working on their flying
electric taxi for 10 years and 1000 flights, yet are only planning
certification for 2023 and starting operations in 2024.

Of these, only the latter seem likely to have an eVTOL aircraft close to
commercial operation by 2025.

In any case, since these all have unshielded rotors, what are the chances
that any of them will ever be certified for off-airfield operations?


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #5  
Old May 3rd 21, 09:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
kinsell
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 546
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

On 5/3/21 12:02 PM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Mon, 03 May 2021 09:22:58 -0600, kinsell wrote:

On 5/3/21 8:59 AM, jfitch wrote:
"Aircraft has sustained some damage..." is a masterful understatement
for a totaled aircraft. But I have to ask: what exactly is the point of
a hydrogen powered airplane? 96% of commercial hydrogen is produced
from fossil fuels, why not just use the fossil fuels? To fleece
ignorant investors I'd assume, but still....
On Monday, May 3, 2021 at 6:58:29 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
https://www.avweb.com/aviation-news/...ogen-test-bed-

crashes-after-off-airport-landing/?MailingID=604

If this was a "safe, off-airport landing", I'd sure hate to see a
dangerous off-airport crash. Anytime you rip a wing off, I think that
crosses the line between the two.


It's not just ignorant investors getting fleeced, unwilling taxpayers
are the targets of these scams thanks to ignorant governments.

But some of these new projects are truly revolutionary. Take the ASKA.
Please. Here you have a car that fits in your garage, electric motors
in the wheels to run around town, and for longer trips, just push a
button and it unfolds into marvelous flying machine. For the same price
as a nice motorglider, you get six engines instead of one, with a 250
mile range, beating even a Jeta. And it does the vertical takeoff,
eliminating that annoying trip to the airport. This baby's going to be
flying next year. Since not even lithium batteries last forever, it's
got a dirty old ICE engine, but with the ever popular hydrogen option to
keep the greenie weenies happy. It's something George Jetson never
could have dreamed of. Just hope it meets California emission
standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TGVSoejkW4


Design, build prototype, test fly, certify, scale up into production in 5
years with apparently no hardware to show off yet? Really?

... and there's always Alauda, https://airspeeder.com/ whose only visible
progress is a crash in 2019 that attracted the AAIB's attention and
generated a scathing report from them, AAIB-25876, last year.

Meanwhile, Joby Aviation say they've been working on their flying
electric taxi for 10 years and 1000 flights, yet are only planning
certification for 2023 and starting operations in 2024.

Of these, only the latter seem likely to have an eVTOL aircraft close to
commercial operation by 2025.

In any case, since these all have unshielded rotors, what are the chances
that any of them will ever be certified for off-airfield operations?



here's another VTOL air taxi thingie, using hydrogen fuel cells. 2019
article sez they were hoping for FAA certification in 2020. You betcha.
Then the CEO says it'll be another 10 years before the service is
practical.

https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydr...ange-20190603/


It's "fundamentally human" and "here today" (in 2019). So let's see one.

  #6  
Old May 5th 21, 03:29 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Guy Acheson[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 20
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

Oh..come on Fitch.
TV science shows demonstrate solar panels powering electrolytic generation of hydrogen.
Unlimited hydrogen from the sun's power.
Same with cars. Solar panels covering the surface will recharge the batteries continuously for free.
Airplanes have already demonstrated powered flight with all power coming from solar panels.
Just like unlimited power from fission...it is only 10 years away.
  #7  
Old May 5th 21, 08:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

On Tue, 04 May 2021 19:29:42 -0700, Guy Acheson wrote:

Same with cars. Solar panels covering the surface will recharge the
batteries continuously for free.

Sure have - but lightweight, single seat vehicled with large, flat top
surfaces covered with solar cells. Specially designed to race across
Australia.

Airplanes have already demonstrated powered flight with all power coming
from solar panels.

Yep, and one even flew round the world on solar power. But lets not
forget that it was huge, a single seater, flew at 35-40 kts and took
weeks to finish the journey.

Just like unlimited power from fission...it is only 10 years away.

Thats the problem with the kids who should know better - they're unable
to distinguish between a hobby/proof of concept vehicle and something you
can buy right now and drive to Vegas for a weekend.

Isn't it wonderful to read about all those VTOL electric cars that will
be available for anybody to buy and fly in four years time, but right now
only exist as shiny graphics plus a price on some website? Not!



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #8  
Old May 5th 21, 02:22 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

On 5/5/2021 12:20 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2021 19:29:42 -0700, Guy Acheson wrote:

Same with cars. Solar panels covering the surface will recharge the
batteries continuously for free.

Sure have - but lightweight, single seat vehicled with large, flat top
surfaces covered with solar cells. Specially designed to race across
Australia.

Airplanes have already demonstrated powered flight with all power coming
from solar panels.

Yep, and one even flew round the world on solar power. But lets not
forget that it was huge, a single seater, flew at 35-40 kts and took
weeks to finish the journey.

Just like unlimited power from fission...it is only 10 years away.

Thats the problem with the kids who should know better - they're unable
to distinguish between a hobby/proof of concept vehicle and something you
can buy right now and drive to Vegas for a weekend.

Isn't it wonderful to read about all those VTOL electric cars that will
be available for anybody to buy and fly in four years time, but right now
only exist as shiny graphics plus a price on some website? Not!


Sometimes, I wonder what was said when automobiles were one-offs and horses
provided the local transportation for people and goods and trains for long
distances. Imagine how impractical they were in the beginning: poor roads, no
fueling or repair stations, very expensive. And not safe to use while drunk
because you'd crash, while a horse would keep you safe, maybe even get you home.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #9  
Old May 5th 21, 03:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 699
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

On Wed, 05 May 2021 06:22:15 -0700, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/5/2021 12:20 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2021 19:29:42 -0700, Guy Acheson wrote:

Same with cars. Solar panels covering the surface will recharge the
batteries continuously for free.

Sure have - but lightweight, single seat vehicled with large, flat top
surfaces covered with solar cells. Specially designed to race across
Australia.

Airplanes have already demonstrated powered flight with all power
coming from solar panels.

Yep, and one even flew round the world on solar power. But lets not
forget that it was huge, a single seater, flew at 35-40 kts and took
weeks to finish the journey.

Just like unlimited power from fission...it is only 10 years away.

Thats the problem with the kids who should know better - they're unable
to distinguish between a hobby/proof of concept vehicle and something
you can buy right now and drive to Vegas for a weekend.

Isn't it wonderful to read about all those VTOL electric cars that will
be available for anybody to buy and fly in four years time, but right
now only exist as shiny graphics plus a price on some website? Not!


Sometimes, I wonder what was said when automobiles were one-offs and
horses provided the local transportation for people and goods and trains
for long distances. Imagine how impractical they were in the beginning:
poor roads, no fueling or repair stations, very expensive. And not safe
to use while drunk because you'd crash, while a horse would keep you
safe, maybe even get you home.

I think you're missing my point: there are a couple of eVTOL aircraft
that have been flying for several years, not yet certified but planned to
be on sale in four years or so.

I'm not talking about the Terrafugia either - that does fly - or even the
Moller Flying cars, which Paul Moller has been building for getting on 50
years: these have flown, though never without a safety tether and never,
AFAICT, with anybody on board.

As I said, I'm not talking about them. What I AM pointing the finger at
are several whose entire existence seems to art on a glossy website with
no news about financing, construction, or test flying development
progress yet with promises to be on sale on four years time at already-
announced prices.

These are the projects that deserve critical examination, not rave
reviews in glossy magazines.

One that comes close to this is the Alauda Airspeeder
https://alaudaracing.com/

This was a 1/3 scale prototype was built and flown, but crashed, thanks
to poorly thought systems which were also badly implemented. There's an
AAIB report about it, which is worth reading as an object lesson on how
not to develop a prototype aircraft:

AAIB investigation to Alauda Airspeeder Mk II, (UAS, registration n/a)
040719
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib...da-airspeeder-
mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719



--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #10  
Old May 5th 21, 04:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,939
Default Too much air in the gas tank??

On 5/5/2021 7:39 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 05 May 2021 06:22:15 -0700, Eric Greenwell wrote:

On 5/5/2021 12:20 AM, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Tue, 04 May 2021 19:29:42 -0700, Guy Acheson wrote:

Same with cars. Solar panels covering the surface will recharge the
batteries continuously for free.

Sure have - but lightweight, single seat vehicled with large, flat top
surfaces covered with solar cells. Specially designed to race across
Australia.

Airplanes have already demonstrated powered flight with all power
coming from solar panels.

Yep, and one even flew round the world on solar power. But lets not
forget that it was huge, a single seater, flew at 35-40 kts and took
weeks to finish the journey.

Just like unlimited power from fission...it is only 10 years away.

Thats the problem with the kids who should know better - they're unable
to distinguish between a hobby/proof of concept vehicle and something
you can buy right now and drive to Vegas for a weekend.

Isn't it wonderful to read about all those VTOL electric cars that will
be available for anybody to buy and fly in four years time, but right
now only exist as shiny graphics plus a price on some website? Not!


Sometimes, I wonder what was said when automobiles were one-offs and
horses provided the local transportation for people and goods and trains
for long distances. Imagine how impractical they were in the beginning:
poor roads, no fueling or repair stations, very expensive. And not safe
to use while drunk because you'd crash, while a horse would keep you
safe, maybe even get you home.

I think you're missing my point: there are a couple of eVTOL aircraft
that have been flying for several years, not yet certified but planned to
be on sale in four years or so.

I'm not talking about the Terrafugia either - that does fly - or even the
Moller Flying cars, which Paul Moller has been building for getting on 50
years: these have flown, though never without a safety tether and never,
AFAICT, with anybody on board.

As I said, I'm not talking about them. What I AM pointing the finger at
are several whose entire existence seems to art on a glossy website with
no news about financing, construction, or test flying development
progress yet with promises to be on sale on four years time at already-
announced prices.

These are the projects that deserve critical examination, not rave
reviews in glossy magazines.

One that comes close to this is the Alauda Airspeeder
https://alaudaracing.com/

This was a 1/3 scale prototype was built and flown, but crashed, thanks
to poorly thought systems which were also badly implemented. There's an
AAIB report about it, which is worth reading as an object lesson on how
not to develop a prototype aircraft:

AAIB investigation to Alauda Airspeeder Mk II, (UAS, registration n/a)
040719
https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib...da-airspeeder-
mk-ii-uas-registration-n-slash-a-040719


My apologies: my remarks weren't intended as criticism of your comments, but
more generally about the difficulty of predicting the future. I think there are
some parallels with horses/autos and now autos/evtol that are at least
interesting, maybe useful to know. I suspect there were also entities back then
making promises about their autos and the future of automobiles that were too
optimistic, and some of those were charlatans looking for investors to fleece.

As for flying cars, I think airport loaner cars, Hertz, and Uber are better
solutions to a pilot's ground transportation needs.

--
Eric Greenwell - USA
- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

 




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