So There I Was...

On Apr 10, 11:15 pm, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
"Crash Lander" wrote in message

...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
"NXXYY 30 miles North, inbound" responds on the radio and says "NXXYY is
on a 9 mile straight in, doing 180 knots".

Just thinking out loud here. Not trying to be a smart arse, and no, I've
never had this happen to me - yet!
At 180kts and 9 miles out, that means he'd be at the field in 3 minutes.
He's not in the pattern as such, so he can't see what's where. You're
still on downwind when he calls, so I'd have extended my downwind by a
minute to allow him through. Also, if you could see him a couple of miles
to the North when you turned base, at 180kts, he's on top of you in under
a minute, so it's obvious he's going to need to go around. Having said all
that though, you're right. If he pulled the throttle back a bit he could
have saved himself the go around.
Were any words exchanged once you were both on the ground?
Oz Lander

Naah, no words, and I did several stop and go landings to conclude my
evening. I don't think the traffic conflict was a huge deal. It wasn't
like I was upset about the situation and he shouldn't have been either. I
just can't figure why he didn't try and blend into the light traffic. All
he had to do was pull the noise lever back a little. As far as extending my
pattern, you're right that it was an option. However, I was on a post
maintenance flight and wanted to stay close to the field, which meant I
didn't want to fly a big pattern. Also, I didn't think I needed to yield to
someone who didn't seem to be playing by the "rules of the road", whether
formal or informal.

Well, its been a few years since I've posted anything here, but I
gotta play devil's advocate here a bit.

You're on downwind, and see traffic on final. You then start your
base turn to cut him off and make him go around, even when you were
planning on doing pattern work? That's a pretty a**hole thing to do.
You could have extended your downwind by 30 seconds and he'd have been
past you, or done a left 270 to base and let him through.

When I was freight doggin' it, we'd often look for ways to save as
much time as we could, and often times it was much easier to land
straight in, than to fly overhead, then circle around, descend and
enter the pattern on the 45, especially when we could keep our speed
up the whole way down and scrub it all off on short final. On the
same note, if there was faster traffic on final it was easier for all
to extend by 30-45 seconds to let the faster guy just land; it's
called common courtesy.

The traffic pattern is no place to by playing chicken, which is
exactly what you did when you turned your base in front of faster
traffic, then continued to turn in front of overtaking traffic on
final, hoping he'd go around or slow down. Sometimes slipperier
airplanes can't just "slow down" as soon as somebody calls that
they're going sequence themselves first. In the Lear, we have to take
1 mile for every 10 knots we want to lose, until we get down to 180
and can start throwing the gear and flaps out. Unless we want to shake
the **** outta the guys in back with spoilers.

Just food for thought; the sky is no place to be playing the same "F-
U, it's MY turn!" games that go on in traffic every day.

Mike

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

Kyle Boatright wrote:

Naah, no words, and I did several stop and go landings to conclude my
evening. I don't think the traffic conflict was a huge deal. It wasn't
like I was upset about the situation and he shouldn't have been either. I
just can't figure why he didn't try and blend into the light traffic. All
he had to do was pull the noise lever back a little. As far as extending my
pattern, you're right that it was an option. However, I was on a post
maintenance flight and wanted to stay close to the field, which meant I
didn't want to fly a big pattern. Also, I didn't think I needed to yield to
someone who didn't seem to be playing by the "rules of the road", whether
formal or informal.



I don't see how he can claim any pattern rights from 9 miles out. He was taking
a chance and he knew it. Everybody who flies a long straight in knows he's
cheating a bit and may well get called on it and have to enter the pattern
properly after all.

It's a bit unclear whether KB could claim pattern
rights either. From the best I could understand,
he was descending from 3000 either in the 45 or
in the downwind. Call me a student, but what I've
been taught is that you fly the pattern at 1000
or you're not in it.

"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
.. .
Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

Kyle Boatright wrote:

Naah, no words, and I did several stop and go landings to conclude my
evening. I don't think the traffic conflict was a huge deal. It wasn't
like I was upset about the situation and he shouldn't have been either.
I
just can't figure why he didn't try and blend into the light traffic.
All
he had to do was pull the noise lever back a little. As far as extending
my
pattern, you're right that it was an option. However, I was on a post
maintenance flight and wanted to stay close to the field, which meant I
didn't want to fly a big pattern. Also, I didn't think I needed to yield
to
someone who didn't seem to be playing by the "rules of the road", whether
formal or informal.



I don't see how he can claim any pattern rights from 9 miles out. He was
taking a chance and he knew it. Everybody who flies a long straight in
knows he's cheating a bit and may well get called on it and have to enter
the pattern properly after all.

It's a bit unclear whether KB could claim pattern
rights either. From the best I could understand,
he was descending from 3000 either in the 45 or
in the downwind. Call me a student, but what I've
been taught is that you fly the pattern at 1000
or you're not in it.

Before I made my 135 degree descending turn, I was at 3000' above sea level.
By the time I was inbound on the 2 mile 45 degree pattern entry, I was below
2,500' and descending pretty rapidly towards the pattern altitude of 1,800'.
That was when I made my initial call. By the time the other aircraft
responded, I was either at pattern altitude or very close...

KB

wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 10, 11:15 pm, "Kyle Boatright" wrote:
"Crash Lander" wrote in message

...



"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
"NXXYY 30 miles North, inbound" responds on the radio and says "NXXYY
is
on a 9 mile straight in, doing 180 knots".

Just thinking out loud here. Not trying to be a smart arse, and no,
I've
never had this happen to me - yet!
At 180kts and 9 miles out, that means he'd be at the field in 3
minutes.
He's not in the pattern as such, so he can't see what's where. You're
still on downwind when he calls, so I'd have extended my downwind by a
minute to allow him through. Also, if you could see him a couple of
miles
to the North when you turned base, at 180kts, he's on top of you in
under
a minute, so it's obvious he's going to need to go around. Having said
all
that though, you're right. If he pulled the throttle back a bit he
could
have saved himself the go around.
Were any words exchanged once you were both on the ground?
Oz Lander

Naah, no words, and I did several stop and go landings to conclude my
evening. I don't think the traffic conflict was a huge deal. It wasn't
like I was upset about the situation and he shouldn't have been either.
I
just can't figure why he didn't try and blend into the light traffic.
All
he had to do was pull the noise lever back a little. As far as extending
my
pattern, you're right that it was an option. However, I was on a post
maintenance flight and wanted to stay close to the field, which meant I
didn't want to fly a big pattern. Also, I didn't think I needed to yield
to
someone who didn't seem to be playing by the "rules of the road", whether
formal or informal.

Well, its been a few years since I've posted anything here, but I
gotta play devil's advocate here a bit.

You're on downwind, and see traffic on final. You then start your
base turn to cut him off and make him go around, even when you were
planning on doing pattern work?

Mike,

Your feedback is appreciated. Since I share an airfield with Phoenix Air,
I'm pretty familiar with freight operations. One thing I will say is that
the Phoenix guys do a pretty good job of blending with traffic, probably
because several of those guys fly cargo and instruct on the side. They
would probably end up cutting off their own students if they were aggressive
in the pattern.

Anyway, in this particular situation, I had no idea that the Meridian would
need to execute a go around. When he announced he was on "short final" he
was probably 2 miles beyond my base leg and had plenty of room to work with.

KB

That's a pretty a**hole thing to do.
You could have extended your downwind by 30 seconds and he'd have been
past you, or done a left 270 to base and let him through.

When I was freight doggin' it, we'd often look for ways to save as
much time as we could, and often times it was much easier to land
straight in, than to fly overhead, then circle around, descend and
enter the pattern on the 45, especially when we could keep our speed
up the whole way down and scrub it all off on short final. On the
same note, if there was faster traffic on final it was easier for all
to extend by 30-45 seconds to let the faster guy just land; it's
called common courtesy.

The traffic pattern is no place to by playing chicken, which is
exactly what you did when you turned your base in front of faster
traffic, then continued to turn in front of overtaking traffic on
final, hoping he'd go around or slow down. Sometimes slipperier
airplanes can't just "slow down" as soon as somebody calls that
they're going sequence themselves first. In the Lear, we have to take
1 mile for every 10 knots we want to lose, until we get down to 180
and can start throwing the gear and flaps out. Unless we want to shake
the **** outta the guys in back with spoilers.

Just food for thought; the sky is no place to be playing the same "F-
U, it's MY turn!" games that go on in traffic every day.

Mike

Kyle Boatright wrote:
"Jim Stewart" wrote in message
.. .

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:


Kyle Boatright wrote:


Naah, no words, and I did several stop and go landings to conclude my
evening. I don't think the traffic conflict was a huge deal. It wasn't
like I was upset about the situation and he shouldn't have been either.
I
just can't figure why he didn't try and blend into the light traffic.
All
he had to do was pull the noise lever back a little. As far as extending
my
pattern, you're right that it was an option. However, I was on a post
maintenance flight and wanted to stay close to the field, which meant I
didn't want to fly a big pattern. Also, I didn't think I needed to yield
to
someone who didn't seem to be playing by the "rules of the road", whether
formal or informal.



I don't see how he can claim any pattern rights from 9 miles out. He was
taking a chance and he knew it. Everybody who flies a long straight in
knows he's cheating a bit and may well get called on it and have to enter
the pattern properly after all.

It's a bit unclear whether KB could claim pattern
rights either. From the best I could understand,
he was descending from 3000 either in the 45 or
in the downwind. Call me a student, but what I've
been taught is that you fly the pattern at 1000
or you're not in it.


Before I made my 135 degree descending turn, I was at 3000' above sea level.
By the time I was inbound on the 2 mile 45 degree pattern entry, I was below
2,500' and descending pretty rapidly towards the pattern altitude of 1,800'.
That was when I made my initial call. By the time the other aircraft
responded, I was either at pattern altitude or very close...

Fair enough. I read your original post several times
trying to get a picture of how high you were and I
never got the impression that you got down that far.

There are those among us who seem to think that they somehow have
priority over other traffic. I have noticed that those who drive
bigger/faster airplanes tend to have such an attitude. However, they
are not the only ones. An incident that I found particularly
irritating was to have a yo yo decide to shoot a practice IFR approach
(downwind) on a busy Saturday morning.
There was an announcement - but it was delivered so fast as to be
unintelligible. Of course it ended in a missed approach - but it sure
messed up the flow of traffic for a few minutes. There is nothing
wrong with straight in approaches - provided that
they do not interfere with the current flow of traffic (if any).
Personally, I only do it when there is no other traffic.

David Johnson