Requirement to fly departure procedures

Newps wrote:

Fred E. Pate wrote:
wrote:


That's all good except they can't clear you to maintain 4,000' in an area where
their MVA is higher. They can clear you to climb VFR to maintain their MVA, or
higher.



I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).

Not unless you are taking off and climbing.

Or, on a missed approach. But, the context was about reaching a level altitude.

John Clonts wrote:

Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?


Won't say it's never done, but you are not suppose to operate on an IFR flight
plan, with a VFR on top restriction, below the applicable minimum instrument
altitude. That is an ATC policy and is set forth in the AIM.

When IFR/VFR on top, you are bound by both IFR and VFR regulations.

Newps wrote:

John Clonts wrote:

Can you give me a clearance VFR-on-top below the MVA/MEA?

We have a lot of OTP cargo flights here at night. ATC does not specify
an altitude for OTP operations, sometimes the pilot will specify what
altitude he will be cruising at, sometimes not. Many times he will tell
me he will be cruising at say 6500, well below the MEA. I don't care as
it is not my responsibility. I hand him off to the center and off he
goes. From my monitoring of the center freq I gather they do not care
either.

Here’s what the policy is as set forth in AIM 4-4-7:

e. When operating in VFR conditions with an ATC authorization to "maintain
VFR-on-top/maintain VFR conditions" pilots on IFR flight plans must:
1. Fly at the appropriate VFR altitude as prescribed in 14 CFR Section
91.159.
2. Comply with the VFR visibility and distance from cloud criteria in 14
CFR Section 91.155 (Basic VFR Weather Minimums).
3. Comply with instrument flight rules that are applicable to this flight;
i.e., minimum IFR altitudes, position reporting, radio communications,
course to be flown, adherence to ATC clearance, etc.

Here’s what the PCG says about it in the 7110.65:

VFR-ON-TOP - ATC authorization for an IFR aircraft to operate in VFR
conditions at any appropriate VFR altitude (as specified in FAR and as
restricted by ATC). A pilot receiving this authorization must comply with
the VFR visibility, distance from cloud criteria, and the minimum IFR
altitudes specified in FAR Part 91. The use of this term does not relieve
controllers of their responsibility to separate aircraft in Class B and
Class C airspace or TRSA's as required by FAAO 7110.65.

wrote in message
...

I was always under the assumption that if my atc clearance received on
the ground was direct to a fix, I was free to forgo the departure
procedure and do an immediate turn after takeoff. I note that FAR
91.129, Operations in class D airspace states that:

"(g) Departures. No person may operate an aircraft departing from an
airport except in compliance with the following:
(1) Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures established
for that airport by the FAA."

So how, on a good weather delay, can one avoid flying the departure
procedure? Note the word "established" vice "assigned"


I assume you meant "good weather day". Remember that FAR 91.129(a) states,
"Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section." If ATC clears you direct to a fix, you have been "otherwise
authorized or required".

wrote in message
...

That applies to any local departure procedure for traffic or noise
abatement. It does not apply to IFR departure procedures.


It says "departure procedures established for that airport by the FAA".
That doesn't sound local to me.

wrote in message
...

And these are FAA departure procedures? No where else available? By
the time I read the bulletin board, I've already landed!


Yes, but departure procedures shouldn't be much of a concern to arriving
aircraft.

wrote in message
...

They are established by the airport, not the FAA.


The regulation states, "Each pilot must comply with any departure procedures
established for that airport by the FAA."

"Michael" wrote in message
om...

You are ignoring 91.129(b)
(b) Deviations. An operator may deviate from any provision of thisFAR
91.129
section under the provisions of an ATC authorization issued by the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over the airspace concerned. ATC may
authorize a deviation on a continuing basis or for an individual
flight, as appropriate.

Your clearance direct to the fix constitutes ATC authorization to
deviate from 91.129(g)(1) for this individual flight.


You're ignoring FAR 91.129(a):
(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§91.126 and 91.127.
For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport for
which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is any
other airport within the Class D airspace area.

"John Clonts" wrote in message
...

What if I'm cleared to the fix but *want* to fly the departure procedure,
which takes me to the fix after some turns? Seems like I remember someone
quoting (I think from the ATC handbook) something like "... compliance
with a published departure procedure is at the discretion of the
pilot...".
Where does that fit into this?


If a published IFR departure procedure is not included in an ATC clearance,
compliance with such a procedure is the pilot's prerogative. I'd advise the
tower of your intentions though, it could be rather unexpected on a good
weather day.

"Fred E. Pate" wrote in message
...

I don't believe that is correct. ATC cannot give you vectors below the
MVA (the minimum vectoring altitude).


In some situations they can; radar approaches, departures and missed
approaches where ATC can separate from obstructions.



But you can still fly IFR visually maintaining terrain separation.


Yes, but the altitude in the clearance must be at or above the MVA.