Paid CFIGs/Tow Pilots in Club Setting

Jeffrey Banks wrote:
As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

Section 61.113: Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.
....
(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.

Let the thread begin 8^)

Marc

As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?

wrote in message
ups.com...

As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?

I would also be interested in the answer to that question. In particular,
the notion that genuine flight experience can't be logged seems just wierd.
61.113 by itself seems to make it OK to pay a Private tow pilot, but I wonder if
it is still prohibited by some other regulation or guidance.

Getting back to the spirit of the thread... regardless of regulations, and
as others have mentioned, NOT paying Private tow pilots sounds to me to be a
sound and defensible club policy. Towing is a potentially dangerous job that
requires precision flying and very good judgement. The club should encourage
all tow pilots to develop their skills and demonstrate them by obtaining
Commercial licenses. Required by FAA regulations or not, this would be a safe,
conservative policy. Exactly the type of thing that would look very good to
your insurance company, or (heaven forbid) in court.

Vaughn



Vaughn

Every FSDO seems to interpret it differently, however recent the
information. You can count the hours towards a rating.
I am unsure of the "remuneration" in dollars.

But now the insurance companies get involved. The standard answer seems to
be, that if you are "selling rides" to the general public, you best carry
"commercial" insurance on the gliders and the tow, and the insurance company
will (may) require a Commercial rated tow pilot and a Commercial rated
glider pilot.

"Most" club insurance is not "commercial" and only covers operations with
"club members", visiting glider pilots bringing their own gliders to the
field will need to become "members according to the club by-laws" to gain
tows. Otherwise the "club" could be accused of "selling tows" and the
insurance would be null and void. The same could be said of visiting pilots
"renting club gliders".

The "add-on" for commercial operations to a clubs insurance policy was
almost 20% higher for us, plus the stipulation that all tow pilots used for
"rides" or towing non club gliders have a commercial ASEL rating. For the
possible benefit gained it was not worth it to us to pursue commercial
coverage.

BT

wrote in message
ups.com...

As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?

On Oct 14, 12:31 pm, "BT" wrote:
Every FSDO seems to interpret it differently, however recent the
information. You can count the hours towards a rating.
I am unsure of the "remuneration" in dollars.

But now the insurance companies get involved. The standard answer seems to
be, that if you are "selling rides" to the general public, you best carry
"commercial" insurance on the gliders and the tow, and the insurance company
will (may) require a Commercial rated tow pilot and a Commercial rated
glider pilot.

"Most" club insurance is not "commercial" and only covers operations with
"club members", visiting glider pilots bringing their own gliders to the
field will need to become "members according to the club by-laws" to gain
tows. Otherwise the "club" could be accused of "selling tows" and the
insurance would be null and void. The same could be said of visiting pilots
"renting club gliders".

The "add-on" for commercial operations to a clubs insurance policy was
almost 20% higher for us, plus the stipulation that all tow pilots used for
"rides" or towing non club gliders have a commercial ASEL rating. For the
possible benefit gained it was not worth it to us to pursue commercial
coverage.

BT

wrote in message

ups.com...





As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Fred said, TSA is the most successful club I know of. Perhaps you can
gain
current knowledge from them.

Fred,
TSA (Texas Soaring Association) is not immune to the shortage of
free CFIG services, just look at thier website: texassoaring.org to
see their proclamation of an instructor shortage which is causing a
delay in training for new members. Pay for instruction has come up
before at TSA and it will be discussed again in the very near future
as an alternative to the free/volunteer instruction program which is
currently insufficient for the clubs needs.

Towing is a potentially dangerous job that
requires precision flying and very good judgement. The club should encourage
all tow pilots to develop their skills and demonstrate them by obtaining
Commercial licenses. Required by FAA regulations or not, this would be a safe,
conservative policy. Exactly the type of thing that would look very good to
your insurance company, or (heaven forbid) in court.

Vaughn

Vaughn



Yes, it is dangerous and requires skill and judgement. Unfortunately,
the skills required for
towing are somewhat orthogonal to the skills the FAA requires of
commercial pilots.

Strange patterns, 360s on short final to yield the runway to gliders,
towing precisely to pattern
altitude at the IP, knowing when to circle in a thermal and when to
'take care of the student',
holding heading during a wake box, slip spiraling at 60% power to
avoid shock cooling
the engine, recognizing glider problems in the vibrating mirror,
guarding
the folks on the ground from the dangling towrope...

I could go on and on. None of these are part of the asel commercial
syllabus.

On Oct 14, 7:06 am, wrote:
As for towpilots. Private pilots are allowed to tow, however they
cannot log the time toward a rating and cannot get paid.

yea you got any regulatory guidance to back that one up or is it just
an OWT thats been passed down through the generations?

This waiver was negotiated by SSA and applies only to SSA chapter
clubs. I was club towing on a pvt cert when this came to a head maybe
15 years ago. I decided to get a restricted commercial (no instrument
rating). I would expect that the waiver is published on SSA website
but I don't have time to look now.

During that discussion FAA asserted that logging time was
compensation, hence the restriction on counting time towards new
ratings. It did not prohibit using the time to maintain currency for
existing ratings.

Andy

Sorry......I got it wrong on the Private pilot towing exceptions.
Somehow I forgot the changes to FAR part 61 ten years ago..

Must be a symptom of "half"-heimers........I seem to only be
remembering half of the stuff I use to. : )

Jeff Banks