Verifying flap retraction

About 1999 according to my extremely limited survey of one student pilot.

--

Roger Long



"BTIZ" wrote in message
news:OPwUc.101556$xk.10937@fed1read01...
I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

BT

"I just proved that to myself today. Took off with the upper latch undone
on the Archer. Decided to go on to the next airport (five miles) and....

You're not alone. Recently, I was reading an older issue of P&P, and they
did a pilot report on a Cherokee, shown with the upper latch undone.... :-)

"Bob Chilcoat" wrote in message
...
"Roger Long" wrote in message
...

Neither is having a door pop open but, look how many pilots that has
killed.

Roger Long

I just proved that to myself today. Took off with the upper latch undone
on
the Archer. Decided to go on to the next airport (five miles) and land
there to fix it. Got distracted and forgot the boost pump in the pattern.
Not a disaster, but I demonstrated to myself that a door open can be more
of
a distraction than I had thought. Doh!

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

I don't have to like Bush and Cheney (Or Kerry, for that matter) to love
America

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 15:26:45 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
Most of the problems that I have had on Cessna 172s have been with
flaps. I
agree that pilots should verify flaps up on touch and goes.

Cessna used to have manual flaps. Why did they ever go to this flakey
electrical system in the first place?

The old "Johnson bar" could be fun. You had to depress the button in
front by lifting the pressure gently off the bar. Every now and then if
you weren't careful, the damn thing could slip out of your fingers and
slam down, retracting the flaps in one hell of a hurry.

The old Hershey Bar winged Cherokee 180s also used the Johnson bar.
It was the only plane where I could raise the flaps and actually
shorten the landing roll. The electric ones are just too slow.

You could always tell the CFI's who had had this happen to them when a
student let the bar go on a low altitude go around. They would be the
ones with the snow white hair!!! :-)

In nearly 375 hours I never dropped the bar once.
Man, when doing a short filed landing you put the bar full forward as
soon as the mains were down. It felt like the gear got a foot shorter
when that bar went forward. :-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
G-III almost done except for the last 90%
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired

For personal email, please
replace the at with what goes there and
take out the Z's please!
dhenriquesZatZearthZlinkZdotZnet

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, BTIZ wrote:

I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

'They' haven't, at least as of 2002 at my (Canadian) flying club. Shoulder
check one side in flight, and when you're putting the flaps back up after
engine start, check *both* sides to make sure they're moving in synch.

Brian.


BT

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

On Tue, 17 Aug 2004 11:27:26 GMT, "Roger Long"
wrote:

One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had frozen at
20 degrees on our 172.

My only flap indicator, other than the feel of the airplane is looking
out the window. It has no flap indicator and the switch is up, down,
or off with up and down being momentary. There is no trim change at
all when going from no flaps to full flaps in the Deb. OTOH there is
a large trim change with a change in speed.


I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

Many years ago on my first solo cross country I was landing at
Cadillac MI. This was in the winter and Cadillac has snow. The
runway is like being in a canyon. You can not see over the snow or
even who is on the the taxiway.

At any rate, Goose down jacket, fleece lined leather gloves, long
snuggies, knit cap, and insulated boots were mandatory in that old
150. I was turning final and pushed the flap switch all the way down.
As I was making the turn I had to pull back more than usual to hold
altitude and the speed was increasing like crazy. I thought, "this
feels just like the flaps are retracting". I looked over my shoulder
in time to see them move flush with the ailerons. If you pushed the
flap switch all the way down and let your finger slip off that spring
loaded flap switch could snap all the way through off into the up
position. It did.

Never having come down final quite that fast I decided my pride could
wait while I went around and did a final at a normal speed. (and
caught up with the airplane)

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling in the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to safety as
doing stalls.

roger that.. and on the touch and go.. flaps up.. look over both shoulder
for movement or "verify both up".. then power up..

BT

"Brian Burger" wrote in message
.tc.ca...
On Tue, 17 Aug 2004, BTIZ wrote:

I've been looking over my shoulder at Cessna flaps on retract during
touch
and goes for 30 yrs... when did they stop teaching "verify"

'They' haven't, at least as of 2002 at my (Canadian) flying club. Shoulder
check one side in flight, and when you're putting the flaps back up after
engine start, check *both* sides to make sure they're moving in synch.

Brian.


BT

"Roger Long" wrote in message
...
One of the more experienced pilots in our club scared himself climbing
out
of a touch and go during which he didn't notice that the flaps had
frozen
at
20 degrees on our 172.

I've been investigating the flap system on Cessna's and am impressed
how
easily a bit of fluff or corrosion in just one switch can let the
flaps go
down but then fail to retract.

This leaves me convinced that CFI's and all of us should be drilling
in
the
glance over the shoulder to verify retraction on all touch and goes
and go
arounds. Practicing climb outs from minimum airspeed with all flap
settings
is a very neglected part of airwork and probably as important to
safety as
doing stalls.

--

Roger Long

Casey Wilson wrote:
"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...

As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.


Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

And without the preselect type electric flaps you bump it up a little at
a time.

"Casey Wilson" wrote in message
...

"C J Campbell" wrote in message
...
As long as we are at it, the Cessna POH says on go around or any takeoff
with flaps that you should "raise flaps slowly" upon reaching a safe
altitude and airspeed.

AFAIK the flap motor has only one speed.

Perhaps that means one notch at a time. I'm sure you don't need the
litany, CJ. Or were you trolling?

What? Me troll? :-)

Yes, perhaps that is what it means. However, takeoffs with more than 10
degrees of flaps are prohibited. If you go around, the expanded procedures
say to raise the flaps immediately to 10 degrees. Then, when a safe altitude
and airspeed are reached, raise the flaps the remaining 10 degrees slowly. I
am speaking here specifically of the S model, though the discussion applies
equally well to others.