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#51
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What do you do in the real world?
Tim wrote: "Holding Instructions If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on the course upon which you approached the fix. You should immediately request further clearance." You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up the works. |
#52
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What do you do in the real world?
Newps wrote:
Tim wrote: "Holding Instructions If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on the course upon which you approached the fix. You should immediately request further clearance." You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up the works. I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an approach. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do. That is why I posted it. I hope you are not saying to do this at any airport. |
#53
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What do you do in the real world?
This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport (KVNY to be precise). So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the airport then the IAF? You should go to an IAF, then land at your clearance limit - which is the airport. Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the destination? that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an approach. That is what the regs say to do. So how in the world would I navigate to the airport using just a VOR? The only way to do it is to use an IAP. Thus, I fly the IAP to my clearance limit -0 which is the aiport I filed to. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do. Believe it. I fly IFR routinely. (But I don't lose comm routinely.) Right, but you were also unaware of what to do when reaching a clearance limit with no more instructions and no published hold. rg |
#54
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What do you do in the real world?
Ron Garret wrote:
In article , Tim wrote: So you are saying that one has to change operating rules based on the route of the flight. No, I am not saying that. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? I don't have to - they are right he "Because it's a different route. The circumstances are different. What one does when flying to FUL may or may not apply when flying to VNY." If you did not mean that, then please explain to my why you have two different examples and two different scenarios? I would imagine that the regulations provide a good description of what has to happen for all circumstances. All I tried to point out was the fallacy of your suggestions in your examples. It is your clearance limit because that is where you filed to and where you want to land. No, it was my clearance limit because that is where I was cleared to. Yes, I understand that. And they gave you that clearance limit because that is what you requested from them - when you filed. That is the end of your flight and they gave you a clearance to there. It is not a clearance to hold there is it? Because what you are arguing is that you really only have a clearance to circle the airport every time you get a clearance that starts with "cleared to xxx airport" and ends in "...direct." You are expecting that every time you fly to an airport you are going to fly to the airport, but somewhere along the line a controller is going to lead you to an IAF, the final approach course, or some other way get you to land. If your clearance limit is an airport, what makes you think you can't execute an IAP and land? Why would you think that the clearance limit for your airport is at some altitude other than 0 AGL? I am beginning to suspect that MX is right and you don't actually have a clue. That is fine with me. Again, "direct" does not mean direct to the airport. That's news to me. Where in the regs does it say that? When you don't lose comms and you file and fly to an airport and do not get vectors, where do you go to? You go to an IAF, right? Not usually. Usually I get vectors to the FAF. I fly in pretty congested airspace where full approaches are quite rare. I misunderstood your initial question and I apologize for any demeaning statements. It appeared to me that you were not aware of what the FARs stated. Again, my apologies. Well, it's possible I'm missing something. We seem to have a difference of opinion about what a direct clearance means. I'm still waiting for a citation to support your position. rg |
#55
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What do you do in the real world?
In article , Tim
wrote: Newps wrote: Tim wrote: "Holding Instructions If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on the course upon which you approached the fix. You should immediately request further clearance." You should immediately pick an approach and land so you stop gumming up the works. I agree - but the OP thinks that since his clearance limit is an airport This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport (KVNY to be precise). that he is to fly to that airport, THEN navigate to an IAF to do an approach. That is what the regs say to do. He wanted to know what to do when arriving at a clearance limit when there are no published holds at that point. I could not believe someone flying IFR routinely does not know what to do. Believe it. I fly IFR routinely. (But I don't lose comm routinely.) rg |
#56
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What do you do in the real world?
In article ,
Tim wrote: So you are saying that one has to change operating rules based on the route of the flight. No, I am not saying that. Why do you keep putting words in my mouth? It is your clearance limit because that is where you filed to and where you want to land. No, it was my clearance limit because that is where I was cleared to. I am beginning to suspect that MX is right and you don't actually have a clue. Again, "direct" does not mean direct to the airport. That's news to me. Where in the regs does it say that? When you don't lose comms and you file and fly to an airport and do not get vectors, where do you go to? You go to an IAF, right? Not usually. Usually I get vectors to the FAF. I fly in pretty congested airspace where full approaches are quite rare. I misunderstood your initial question and I apologize for any demeaning statements. It appeared to me that you were not aware of what the FARs stated. Again, my apologies. Well, it's possible I'm missing something. We seem to have a difference of opinion about what a direct clearance means. I'm still waiting for a citation to support your position. rg |
#57
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What do you do in the real world?
Mark Hansen writes:
If you deem that lost communications is an emergency, and use that to justify doing whatever you want, you're in violation of the regs. You're never in violation of regulations if you deem a situation to be an emergency. As the pilot in command, your decision on whether or not a situation is an emergency is final (FAR 91.3). Two-way communication by radio is required in controlled airspaces because it is dangerous to have aircraft flying around in them without it. Therefore a loss of radio communication is a potentially dangerous situation, and a pilot may well condider it an emergency. The AIM makes this clear (6-4-1(b)). The determination is made by the pilot alone. Pilots with emergencies are still expected to adhere to the standard IFR lost-communications procedures to the extent possible given the nature of their emergencies. The AIM goes into more detail than the regulations from which it is derived, but it still does not cover every situation, and explicitly says so. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#58
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What do you do in the real world?
Ron Garret writes:
Quite so, but keeping my ticket is not my only consideration. There is also the safety of the flight to consider. Following the regs requires more time in the air, more maneuvering, more fuel consumption, and unnecessary traversal of extremely crowded airspace in IMC. All this entails additional risk. If I'm faced with a choice of risking my ticket or risking my safety I'll take the former. If you declare an emergency, there is no regulatory problem with this. You don't put your license at risk simply because you do something that you deem essential for the safety of your flight. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#59
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What do you do in the real world?
Tim writes:
If you don't believe that if your clearance limit is the airport and that you can pick any approach and IAF and execute it when lost coms, then you can try this: from "Instrument Flying Handbook" FAA H 8083 15 page 10-11 http://www.faa.gov/library/manuals/a...-8083-15-2.pdf "Holding Instructions If you arrive at your clearance limit before receiving clearance beyond the fix, ATC expects you to maintain the last assigned altitude and begin holding in accordance with the depicted holding pattern. If no holding pattern is depicted, you are expected to begin holding in a standard holding pattern on the course upon which you approached the fix. You should immediately request further clearance." That last part might be difficult without a radio. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#60
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What do you do in the real world?
Tim wrote: This is not a matter of opinion. My clearance limit was an airport (KVNY to be precise). So, if your clearance limit is the airport, then why do you go to the airport then the IAF? You should go to an IAF, then land at your clearance limit - which is the airport. Indeed, there is confusion about a clearance limit and the route involved in getting there. Here is another question - how would you navigate to the airport, unless on an IAP? When would you ever use the airport as a fix and not the destination? When one files flight plans lazily. Our ex-ATC friend at avweb complains about this regularly. One is supposed to include an approach facility at the end of the route. - FChE |
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