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#1
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Q about lost comms on weird clearance
I normally fly out of Rochester NY, which is towered and class C. And 99%
of the time my clearance route is "Vectors as filed". But yesterday I had to stop off at Batavia to pick up something, and then continue on to Goderich Ontario. Since it's just easier to be on an IFR flight plan when crossing the border, I filed from Batavia (Genesee County). When I called on the RCO to pick up my clearance, instead of what I expected, I got "Cleared to Geneseo VOR, via direct, climb to 4,000 expect 6,000 one zero minutes after departure". There was something in there about getting my filed route later, but I didn't catch the exact wording. The controller helpfully explained later that they do it that way to head you back towards their airspace so they can get you radar identified before sending you towards Buffalo, since Batavia is almost right on the border between Rochester and Buffalo's airspace. And sure enough, as soon as I got to pattern altitude and called Rochester, he asked me to ident, and when I did he gave me the clearance to Goderich "As filed", so it's not like I went well out of my way. I think if I ever do that again, and it's good VFR conditions, I'll file from Buffalo VOR and pick up my clearance in the air on the way there. But I'm curious about what would have happened if I'd lost contact on the way to GEE and it had been real IFR. Geneseo VOR was my clearance limit, so what would I do if I couldn't go back to Rochester VFR? Assume I would have got my further clearance at GEE, so after I got there squawk 7600 and head off to Goderich? Hope that my transponder was still working and head back to Rochester to do the ILS? -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ "I love the smell of burning components in the morning. Smells like victory." (The ******* Operator From Hell) |
#3
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(Paul Tomblin) wrote:
"Cleared to Geneseo VOR, via direct, climb to 4,000 expect 6,000 one zero minutes after departure". There was something in there about getting my filed route later, but I didn't catch the exact wording. I'm guessing he said something to the effect of "expect filed route". Another possibility is "expect further clearance at XXXX". Given the information you supplied, it's a coin toss which :-) But I'm curious about what would have happened if I'd lost contact on the way to GEE and it had been real IFR. You would have whipped out your laptop, fired up a web browser, and gone to http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/c...4cfr91_00.html, where you would have read: 91.185 *IFR operations: Two-way radio communications failure. [...] (c)(3) Leave clearance limit. [...] (ii) If the clearance limit is not a fix from which an approach begins, leave the clearance limit at the expect-further-clearance time if one has been received, or if none has been received, upon arrival over the clearance limit, and proceed to a fix from which an approach begins and commence descent or descent and approach as close as possible to the estimated time of arrival as calculated from the filed or amended (with ATC) estimated time en route. Next, you would have slapped yourself for not paying more attention to your original clearance and take a guess at whether you had a EFC time or not, and if you did, what it was. For the moment, let's assume what the controller said was "Expect filed route after GEE". If so, assuming your filed route included GEE, you would have flown your cleared route, climbing to 6000 10 minutes after you took off. The interesting question is what you do when you get to your destination. Do you hold until your ETA, or do you just go ahead and fly the aporoach and land ASAP, as has been espoused so often on this newsgroup. What makes it interesting in my mind is twofold: 1) I have no idea if Goderich is in an area of radar coverage, and 2) I have little experience flying in Canada. I think I've got a good feel for how ATC works in the US, and feel comfortable exercising my PIC authority to play fast and loose with the last sentence of 91.185(c)(3)(ii). I can only assume that 91.185 is basicly an echo of ICAO procedures and the rules in Canada are the essentially the same, but I'd personally be more inclined to play a literal interpretation in Canadian airspace. Geneseo VOR was my clearance limit, so what would I do if I couldn't go back to Rochester VFR? Assume I would have got my further clearance at GEE, so after I got there squawk 7600 and head off to Goderich? Hope that my transponder was still working and head back to Rochester to do the ILS? |
#4
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In a previous article, Roy Smith said:
(Paul Tomblin) wrote: "Cleared to Geneseo VOR, via direct, climb to 4,000 expect 6,000 one zero minutes after departure". There was something in there about getting my filed route later, but I didn't catch the exact wording. I'm guessing he said something to the effect of "expect filed route". Another possibility is "expect further clearance at XXXX". Given the information you supplied, it's a coin toss which :-) No, I'm pretty sure there wasn't an EFC. or not, and if you did, what it was. For the moment, let's assume what the controller said was "Expect filed route after GEE". If so, assuming your filed route included GEE, you would have flown your cleared route, climbing to 6000 10 minutes after you took off. My filed route didn't include GEE, but I'd filed "Direct BUF v84 YXU ...", so I guess I would have flown the airway that connects GEE to BUF. What makes it interesting in my mind is twofold: 1) I have no idea if Goderich is in an area of radar coverage, and 2) I have little It wasn't. As a matter of fact, the controller turned me loose about 20 minutes before I got to Goderich because his radio repeater near there wasn't working. Which is about where I entered IMC - kind of strange to be out of contact with radar, radio and the horizon all at once. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ Heaven has all the lusers, a generous supply of larts - and no PHBs anywhere in sight. -- The BOFH Heaven, according to Suresh |
#5
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In article ,
(Paul Tomblin) wrote: My filed route didn't include GEE, but I'd filed "Direct BUF v84 YXU ...", so I guess I would have flown the airway that connects GEE to BUF. Seems like a reasonable plan. Going direct BUF would be more in tune with the letter of how the rule is written, though, since that's what you filed and were told to expect. On the other hand, in a lost comm situation, there's a good argument to be made for staying on airways, since they guarantee nav signal reception and terrain clearance. On the third hand, if you've got GPS, and are above the OROCA, going direct seems like the right thing to do. kind of strange to be out of contact with radar, radio and the horizon all at once. Why? Radar and radio contact with ATC are just conveniences. Neither is necessary to fly the airplane. |
#6
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In a previous article, Roy Smith said:
In article , (Paul Tomblin) wrote: My filed route didn't include GEE, but I'd filed "Direct BUF v84 YXU ...", so I guess I would have flown the airway that connects GEE to BUF. Seems like a reasonable plan. Going direct BUF would be more in tune If I'm at GEE, "direct BUF" and "follow the airway between them" is the same thing. kind of strange to be out of contact with radar, radio and the horizon all at once. Why? Radar and radio contact with ATC are just conveniences. Neither is necessary to fly the airplane. Hey, I said it was strange (as in "unfamiliar"), not stressful or scary. -- Paul Tomblin http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/ Your mouse has moved. Windows NT must be restarted for the change to take effect. Reboot now? [ OK ] |
#7
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Paul Tomblin wrote:
No, I'm pretty sure there wasn't an EFC. So, in the future, would it be valuable to expect an EFC and ask for one if you don't receive it? (A sincere question from a low-time IFR pilot G) -- Peter ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#8
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"Peter R." wrote in message ... So, in the future, would it be valuable to expect an EFC and ask for one if you don't receive it? (A sincere question from a low-time IFR pilot G) An EFC does not have to be issued if no delay is expected. |
#9
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When given a clearance to a point enroute that is not your destination you
should also receive an EFC - just in case of lost comms - and ask for one if not provided. I doubt this would only be a Canadian procedure. "Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message ink.net... "Peter R." wrote in message ... So, in the future, would it be valuable to expect an EFC and ask for one if you don't receive it? (A sincere question from a low-time IFR pilot G) An EFC does not have to be issued if no delay is expected. |
#10
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"Ross" wrote in message ble.rogers.com... When given a clearance to a point enroute that is not your destination you should also receive an EFC - just in case of lost comms - and ask for one if not provided. I doubt this would only be a Canadian procedure. FAA Order 7110.65N Air Traffic Control Chapter 4. IFR Section 6. Holding Aircraft 4-6-1. CLEARANCE TO HOLDING FIX Consider operational factors such as length of delay, holding airspace limitations, navigational aids, altitude, meteorological conditions when necessary to clear an aircraft to a fix other than the destination airport. Issue the following: a. Clearance limit (if any part of the route beyond a clearance limit differs from the last routing cleared, issue the route the pilot can expect beyond the clearance limit). PHRASEOLOGY- EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE VIA (routing). EXAMPLE- "Expect further clearance via direct Stillwater V-O-R, Victor Two Twenty-Six Snapy intersection, direct Newark." b. Holding instructions. 1. Holding instructions may be eliminated when you inform the pilot that no delay is expected. 2. When the pattern is charted, you may omit all holding instructions except the charted holding direction and the statement "as published." Always issue complete holding instructions when the pilot requests them. NOTE- The most generally used holding patterns are depicted on U.S. Government or commercially produced low/high altitude en route, area, and STAR Charts. PHRASEOLOGY- CLEARED TO (fix), HOLD (direction), AS PUBLISHED, or CLEARED TO (fix), NO DELAY EXPECTED. c. EFC. Do not specify this item if no delay is expected. 1. When additional holding is expected at any other fix in your facility's area, state the fix and your best estimate of the additional delay. When more than one fix is involved, state the total additional en route delay (omit specific fixes). NOTE- Additional delay information is not used to determine pilot action in the event of two-way communications failure. Pilots are expected to predicate their actions solely on the provisions of 14 CFR Section 91.185. PHRASEOLOGY- EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE (time), and if required, ANTICIPATE ADDITIONAL (time in minutes/hours) MINUTE/HOUR DELAY AT (fix), or ANTICIPATE ADDITIONAL (time in minutes/hours) MINUTE/HOUR EN ROUTE DELAY. EXAMPLE- 1. "Expect further clearance one niner two zero, anticipate additional three zero minute delay at Sweet." 2. "Expect further clearance one five one zero, anticipate additional three zero minute en route delay." 2. When additional holding is expected in an approach control area, state the total additional terminal delay. PHRASEOLOGY- EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE (time), and if required, ANTICIPATE ADDITIONAL (time in minutes/hours) MINUTE/HOUR TERMINAL DELAY. 3. TERMINAL. When terminal delays exist or are expected, inform the appropriate center or approach control facility so that the information can be forwarded to arrival aircraft. 4. When delay is expected, issue items in subparas a and b at least 5 minutes before the aircraft is estimated to reach the clearance limit. If the traffic situation requires holding an aircraft that is less than 5 minutes from the holding fix, issue these items immediately. NOTE- 1. The AIM indicates that pilots should start speed reduction when 3 minutes or less from the holding fix. The additional 2 minutes contained in the 5-minute requirement are necessary to compensate for different pilot/controller ETAS at the holding fix, minor differences in clock times, and provision for sufficient planning and reaction times. 2. When holding is necessary, the phrase "delay indefinite" should be used when an accurate estimate of the delay time and the reason for the delay cannot immediately be determined; i.e., disabled aircraft on the runway, terminal or center sector saturation, weather below landing minimums, etc. In any event, every attempt should be made to provide the pilot with the best possible estimate of his/her delay time and the reason for the delay. Controllers/supervisors should consult, as appropriate, with personnel (other sectors, weather forecasters, the airport management, other facilities, etc.) who can best provide this information. PHRASEOLOGY- DELAY INDEFINITE, (reason if known), EXPECT FURTHER CLEARANCE (time). (After determining the reason for the delay, advise the pilot as soon as possible.) EXAMPLE- "Cleared to Drewe, hold west, as published, expect further clearance via direct Sidney V-O-R one three one five, anticipate additional two zero minute delay at Woody." "Cleared to Aston, hold west on Victor two twenty-five, seven mile leg, left turns, expect further clearance one niner two zero, anticipate additional one five minute terminal delay." "Cleared to Wayne, no delay expected." "Cleared to Wally, hold north, as published, delay indefinite, snow removal in progress, expect further clearance one one three zero." |
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