Flapped Glider Recommendations...

On Jan 9, 3:58*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
snip
P.S. *Martin - AFAIK, the 3000-hour issue on the Pegasus is still a
problem in the USA. :-(

So you don't fancy relocating to Europe?

On Jan 9, 9:12 am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
an advice: Don't stick too close to numbers. Performance numbers of
glider differ vastly depending on who measured them (Johnson or the
German Idaflieg), and, more important:
Sheer performance numbers are only one part of the truth.
In reality you are not going to notice if your ship has two points
better L/D or a slightly better sink rate.

Bye
Andreas


I totally agree with you on the numbers deal - especially when it
comes to manufacturer's specs! And I know that small variances in
finishing and mold changes over the years can affect the L/D by a
point or two. But at least with Johnson (and other practical flight
tests) I have demonstrated numbers that have actually been measured
*in flight* - not theoretical or predicted numbers.

And I understand that I won't notice one or two points of L/D - that's
why I'm going for a jump from ~31:1 to at least 38:1. That big of a
spread I _will_ notice.

The reason I use sink-rate as a measure of performance is because it
directly affects climb rate in a thermal, and just trying to figure
out which airplane "thermals best" is subjective, dependant upon
conditions, and plain tough to get an accurate reading on (especially
because so few people have flown a wide range of gliders over the
years - so there's little common basis for direct comparison).

Dave - The 1f is cool; but the two that I've found talk about having
rough finishes. A glider that old/cheap is just not worth the cost to
refinishing... Again, its not that I don't like them; but do you
think that an $18k LS-1f is a better purchase than a good-condition
LS-3 at $24k? The difference in monthly loan cost is not an issue for
me (I'm not rich, but I've carefully budgetted to handle $8k to $10k
down and a $15k to $18k loan).

Having only flown my Russia, Blanik L-13s, and SGS 2-33s I think I
ought to follow through with my original plan to visit Minden sometime
soon and try their Mini, LS-3a, and LS-4. I need some seat-time in
15m ships to see how they compare to my Russia...

Thanks again, all! The conversation is certainly good for helping
organize my thoughts and refine my opinions.

Anyone have any info about SZD-55's? I had two people email me
privately to say that they thought I could pick one up for around my
$30k limit - but those folks were in England and I haven't heard
anyone from the USA talk about this model. It got plenty of favorable
reviews when it came out... ??

Take care,

--Noel

On Jan 8, 9:48*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
That's an easy one. LS4 or DG300 will be your best bet for 30K.

Ramy

Never seen an LS-4 for sale; and I *love* our two local DG-300's - but
the ones I've seen online seem to go for closer to $40k or $50k!
Thought they were out of my budget (unless people are asking for WAY
more than they're actually selling the aircraft for)...

--Noel

LS4s that you'll find for under 30K are probably getting toward the
end of their Gelcoat life. However, there are some beauties out there
that have been refinished and can probably had for "low/mid 30s".

Fact is, any of the ships of the generation you are talking about are
going to be suffering from Gelcoat issues if they haven't already been
refinished; it's only a question of exactly when, not if they're going
to need to be redone. Given that, I think you're first decision
should be based on the specific ships that you find on the market
rather than the "theoretical" performance figures. If it were my
$30K, I would be very comfortable with pretty much any of the ships
discussed in this thread with special preference given to LS3, LS4,
ASW19, DG300 since I think they might be marginally easier to
resell.

FWIW, I had some success years ago beating the bushes to find LS4s
that "weren't for sale" by going through the registration database.
I found one or two that could've been pried away from the owners for a
fair price, even though they hadn't listed them (yet).

Anyone have any info about SZD-55's? I had two people
email me
privately to say that they thought I could pick one
up for around my
$30k limit - but those folks were in England and I
haven't heard
anyone from the USA talk about this model. It got
plenty of favorable
reviews when it came out... ??

Would appreciate knowing where those 30k SZD 55's are!
(and if they need a refinish- seem to rember something
about shrinkage around the spar caps) Haven't seen
one for sale for under 40k+.

Johnsons test:-

http://web.archive.org/web/200304121...g/Johnson/65-1
992-03.pdf

I know he wrote a later article about the spar shrinkage
and its effects on L/D

Ed Hollestelle's views:-
http://www.wgc.mb.ca/sac/freeflight/92_05.pdf

Noel, 30k dollars will not get you a 55, but perhaps
30k pounds would, 30k Euros may even pull it off, but
not USD. The 55 is a nice standard class. It was SZD's
answer to the Discus.
I recently bought an SZD-59, which as the acro adaptation
of the Std-3. It has all the performance of the Std-3
(38/1 @ 70kts and 130fpm @ 43kts, MEASURED by Johnson,
in 15m config with 36/1 @ 70kts and 135 fpm at 43kts
in 13m), in all measurable fields except with a much
higher roll rate. It will fly circles (literally) around
a Std 3 though, as it has double the aileron, lots
more rudder and elevator as well, and it is stressed
for +7 to -5 G's with the outboard 1m tips removed
(in 15m it is still Jar 22, + 5.65 to - 3.5), boasting
a 2.6 roll rate (45 to 45 degrees at 50 kts). Airbrakes
and main wheel can be operated up t VNE, which is 154
kts with the 13m wing and 143 kts in std mode. There
are only a dozen or so in the states, and I am not
selling mine. One just sold off of WingsandWheels for
$33k. The extra $3k on your budjet would have been
well worth it. The ship is easy to rig, and an absolute
joy to fly. I have yet to hear anyone who has any experience
with them speak badly about them. If one of these
is in your reach though, it really is a very nice ship,
with 2 distinct personalities (13/15m modes). The
Johnson/Carswell report on it is worth reading.


Paul Hanson

At 18:12 09 January 2008, Noel.Wade wrote:
On Jan 9, 9:12 am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
an advice: Don't stick too close to numbers. Performance
numbers of
glider differ vastly depending on who measured them
(Johnson or the
German Idaflieg), and, more important:
Sheer performance numbers are only one part of the
truth.
In reality you are not going to notice if your ship
has two points
better L/D or a slightly better sink rate.

Bye
Andreas


I totally agree with you on the numbers deal - especially
when it
comes to manufacturer's specs! And I know that small
variances in
finishing and mold changes over the years can affect
the L/D by a
point or two. But at least with Johnson (and other
practical flight
tests) I have demonstrated numbers that have actually
been measured
*in flight* - not theoretical or predicted numbers.

And I understand that I won't notice one or two points
of L/D - that's
why I'm going for a jump from ~31:1 to at least 38:1.
That big of a
spread I _will_ notice.

The reason I use sink-rate as a measure of performance
is because it
directly affects climb rate in a thermal, and just
trying to figure
out which airplane 'thermals best' is subjective, dependant
upon
conditions, and plain tough to get an accurate reading
on (especially
because so few people have flown a wide range of gliders
over the
years - so there's little common basis for direct comparison).

Dave - The 1f is cool; but the two that I've found
talk about having
rough finishes. A glider that old/cheap is just not
worth the cost to
refinishing... Again, its not that I don't like them;
but do you
think that an $18k LS-1f is a better purchase than
a good-condition
LS-3 at $24k? The difference in monthly loan cost
is not an issue for
me (I'm not rich, but I've carefully budgetted to handle
$8k to $10k
down and a $15k to $18k loan).

Having only flown my Russia, Blanik L-13s, and SGS
2-33s I think I
ought to follow through with my original plan to visit
Minden sometime
soon and try their Mini, LS-3a, and LS-4. I need some
seat-time in
15m ships to see how they compare to my Russia...

Thanks again, all! The conversation is certainly good
for helping
organize my thoughts and refine my opinions.

Anyone have any info about SZD-55's? I had two people
email me
privately to say that they thought I could pick one
up for around my
$30k limit - but those folks were in England and I
haven't heard
anyone from the USA talk about this model. It got
plenty of favorable
reviews when it came out... ??

Take care,

--Noel

On Jan 7, 12:36*am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Hi All,

Assuming a budget of under $30k, I'm looking at upgrading my Russia
AC-4. *She's an excellent ship and I could do a whole lot more with
her... But with our weak conditions locally, I find myself itching for
a few more points of glide (currently about 31:1) and a lower min-sink
(currently somewhere around 130-140 fpm). *A promotion will be
forthcoming soon, and I've decided to take some of those dollars and
sink them into a better toy (to the detriment of my retirement fund,
I'm sure *chuckle*).

I fly in the Seattle area, where we regularly see cloud-bases of about
4k AGL, and only 2-4 knot lift. *Winds tend to be only moderate, so
I'm more interested in a "floater" than a heavy/fast ship. I will be
doing little (if any) competitive flying; I just want to have fun, go
on decent X/C flights, and not get shot down on weak days when the
thermals are a few miles apart... *Hypothetical situation: *I fly 4
miles to check out potential lift and I have to bail back to my
starting point. *Over that 8 miles I give up ~600 ft more altitude
than a decent 15m ship. *If my starting altitude is only 3k - 4k, that
extra 600 ft means a lot!

BUT, I must say that the quick rigging of the Russia and its automatic
control hookups are really, really nice (as is its maneuverability and
other handling qualities). *Many of the ships I'm looking at lack
those qualities, so I'm hesitant. *If the Dollar wasn't so weak vs.
the Euro, I'd look seriously at buying an Apis kit...

Bottom line: *I want a 15m ship, and want it to be easy to rig and fly
(so I fly it more often). *It has to be a good weak-weather performer,
and cost less than $30k (preferably closer to $25k).

The top names that spring to mind a *Mini-Nimbus, Mosquito, LS-3.
(And yes I've read the Moffat article, Johnson Reports, and done a
crap-load of research online about these planes)

I've long liked the Mini's lower sink rate, lighter weight, and
automatic hookups. However, the seating ergonomics and visibility look
(from photos) like they're not as good as the other two. *Its also not
as pretty of a ship, but that's a seriously minor concern (hell, I fly
a RUSSIA right now, remember!). *The other selling point of the Mini
is that "b" and "c" models (with the improved tail) can be had for
around $20k - $24k.

The Mosquito is slightly heavier than the Mini (though it has the same
wing). *This translates into a slightly higher min-sink rate. *But it
appears to have better ergonomics, better visibility, and a reputation
for high-quality construction. *Unfortunately this costs $$ - with
Mosquitos seemingly selling for near $30k.

The LS-3 is around $25k, has some of the best performance numbers, and
is reportedly very good in climb. *However, it has NO automatic
hookups and the wings are a fair bit heavier to handle than the other
two gliders. *It has the highest min-sink by a small margin.
Ergonomics are supposedly good (other than the flap & airbrake handles
having to be operated together); but I've never seen one in person.
The high weight and lack of automatic hookups bug me, but the price-
performance point is nice.

I've chatted with Mini and Mosquito pilots (its surprisingly hard to
find someone who's flown both), and am hoping to fly both a Mini and
an LS-3a at Minden this winter/spring (though if I buy one, I think
I'd prefer the flaperon LS-3). *No clear decision as of yet...

Anyone care to toss in their opinions and thoughts?

Any alternate suggestions of aircraft I may have overlooked?

Thanks, take care,

--Noel

Okay, I've got my flame suit on.
You might not want to completely disregard the Grob Speed Astir IIB.
I have a Speed Astir II, (my first glider) and I'm very happy with
it. Reasonable performance (40ish:1), low cost, good gelcoat, and
cheap. Disregard claims that they're hard to rig. Only one ship at
Jean assembles more quickly, and that's a Libelle. OTOH, maybe I just
like it because I don't know any better. I've logged 392 hours in mine
since I got it in Dec of 03.

On Jan 9, 2:42 am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel

On Jan 9, 2:42 am, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks Adam, but I'm not interested in a medium-performance metal
ship. The Jantar Standard 2 is a fine first ship; but its not enough
of a performance jump from my Russia to be an appealing choice.

I believe that my budget affords ships that are newer and have better
performance - whether they're standard-class or flapped. And I am
more interested in those options.

Appreciate it, though!

--Noel
Std Jantars are glass and strong. Consider the following world
record.

Speed over a triangular course of 100 km : 249.09 km/h

Date of flight: 01/12/2003
Pilot: Horacio MIRANDA (Argentina)
Course/place: Chos Malal (Argentina)

Glider: PZL-Bielsko SZD-48-1 Jantar Standard 2
Registered 'LVDPD'

I'm from the PNW and spent 10.5 soaring in UK conditions. If I wanted
a 'floater', I'd get a 17m-19m ship. Several are no more vintage than
the 15m gliders mentioned here, though auto hooks are a non-runner.
Rigging is not difficult with the proper kit.

Frank Whiteley

On Jan 9, 11:48*am, wrote:
Okay, I've got my flame suit on.
You might not want to completely disregard the Grob Speed Astir IIB.
I have a Speed Astir II, (my first glider) and I'm very happy with

James -

No flame suit needed, different strokes for different folks!

The reason I've discounted the Speed Astir is that it has a relatively
high sink rate (even higher than my small-wing Russia), and an Eppler
662 airfoil. That's not a "bad" airfoil - but history has shown that
the later airfoils (Wortmann, Boermanns, Horst & Quast, etc) are
superior in a several ways.

Thanks for the alternative suggestion, though! Its always good to
hear about more choices.

Take care,

--Noel

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:12:08 -0800 (PST), "noel.wade"
wrote:

But at least with Johnson (and other practical flight
tests) I have demonstrated numbers that have actually been measured
*in flight* - not theoretical or predicted numbers.

I'm pretty sure that at least for all German gliders younger than 30
years you can trust the published performances - in Germany the
idaflieg measuy every glider type with extremely elaborate yet precise
procedures - if the numbers they got were far off, word about that
would spread quickly.
Dick Johnson also does a great job, but he has a couple of performance
numbers of certain gliders that are simply far off since he is not
able to put the same amount of work into his research as idaflieg
does.


And I understand that I won't notice one or two points of L/D - that's
why I'm going for a jump from ~31:1 to at least 38:1. That big of a
spread I _will_ notice.

Yup.
But trust me - you won't feel a difference between 36:1 and 38:1...
but you are going to feel the difference between 31:1 and 1:36. vbg

I am pretty sure that any glider that was produced after the ASW-15 is
going to fit your performance demand - all of them have at least 38:1.

The reason I use sink-rate as a measure of performance is because it
directly affects climb rate in a thermal, and just trying to figure
out which airplane "thermals best" is subjective, dependant upon
conditions, and plain tough to get an accurate reading on (especially
because so few people have flown a wide range of gliders over the
years - so there's little common basis for direct comparison).

Forget that approach to judge a glider.

Pure sink rates don't work - you also need to incorporate the airspeed
in your judgement since this decides about turn radius. Not to mention
the "feeling" of the glider - LS-7 and ASW-24 have a very good sink
rate on paper, yet their airfoils need to be flown very precisely
compared to other gliders, so most pilots ended climbing significantly
worse than older gliders with a higher sink rate.

My advice: base your judgement on ergonomics (cockpit, handling on
gound and in the air, trailer) - this is going to have a far greater
influence on your performance than pure glider performance numbers.

Having only flown my Russia, Blanik L-13s, and SGS 2-33s I think I
ought to follow through with my original plan to visit Minden sometime
soon and try their Mini, LS-3a, and LS-4. I need some seat-time in
15m ships to see how they compare to my Russia...

I promise: you are going to be blown away by their performance - and
you are not going to be able to judge which of them has the better
performances. Especially flapped ships need a couple of dozen of hours
to get used to if you haven't got experience on flapped
high-performance ships yet.

Anyone have any info about SZD-55's? I had two people email me
privately to say that they thought I could pick one up for around my
$30k limit - but those folks were in England and I haven't heard
anyone from the USA talk about this model. It got plenty of favorable
reviews when it came out... ??

Few SZD-55s around, but one german top pilot used to fly one for a
long time and was very satisfied - so it seems it's comparabley in any
way to current (German) standard classgliders. You can get a
comparably young 55 for the same price as an aolder German ship.
Definitely worth a closer look.


Bye
Andreas