Ventus 2b vs ASW27b ..Which is the better / nicer aircraft?

Some of the suggested costs from American contributors about refinishing
astonish me. I had the whole of my ASW27 refinished in PU by Aerospool in
Slovakia in 2017. They did a superb job at much much less than the numbers
being mentioned in this forum. Ask them for a quotation, probably for next
winter. They even drilled the 1500 holes to ensure the blown wing works
usual. It is still immaculate. I have no idea about the cost of
transporting a container from the USA with three gliders, but it is worth
looking into. (Transport wasn't that easy for me either: 1000miles each way
from UK twice. 10 days' driving!)

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 8:33:12 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Hypothetical situation:
Same condition
Same trailer
Same instruments and accessories
Which is the better ship for strong western thermal racing conditions?
Why?
Thanks in advance for those in the know!
T

ASW27b is the best. Why? I own one!

I flew Captain McQuiggs 27 in 1999. I ordered one the following week. Nineteen years and one refinish and will never sell until I retire from gliders...

Light wings. Easy to rig on the ground. Plenty of room. A ton of room for all the stuff you don't need at the instrument panel...

We don't need no stinking 18 Meter wing! lol

ASW27b 27-148

"SQ"

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 4:46:49 PM UTC-8, Gary Wayland wrote:
On Sunday, December 22, 2019 at 8:33:12 PM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Hypothetical situation:
Same condition
Same trailer
Same instruments and accessories
Which is the better ship for strong western thermal racing conditions?
Why?
Thanks in advance for those in the know!
T

ASW27b is the best. Why? I own one!

I flew Captain McQuiggs 27 in 1999. I ordered one the following week. Nineteen years and one refinish and will never sell until I retire from gliders...

Light wings. Easy to rig on the ground. Plenty of room. A ton of room for all the stuff you don't need at the instrument panel...

We don't need no stinking 18 Meter wing! lol

ASW27b 27-148

"SQ"

That extra 3 meters of wing in a 29 equals about 50 pounds more wieght per wing as compared to 27.

For the life of me I cannot see how a glider that costs 6 figures can need gelcoat replacement in 10-15 years when my 1980 DG still has perfect original gelcoat.
Frankly, I wouldn’t buy any glider with crap gelcoat that won’t last.

Cost of living difference between most of USA and Eastern europe is stark.

10 days to drive 1000 miles? 1000 miles is a 1-1.5 day effort here...

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 5:27:10 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
Cost of living difference between most of USA and Eastern europe is stark.

10 days to drive 1000 miles? 1000 miles is a 1-1.5 day effort here...

Thank President Eisenhower and his interstate

At 02:19 24 December 2019, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 5:27:10 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
Cost of living difference between most of USA and Eastern europe is
stark.

10 days to drive 1000 miles? 1000 miles is a 1-1.5 day effort here...

Thank President Eisenhower and his interstate

You have to factor in the English Channel, speed restrictions in Germany,
and a change of time zone. I did the journey with my 27 (which I intend to
be buried in!) 1100 miles each way. 2 stops on the way S including
Maastrict and Prague, a night in Previdsa and one stop (Regensburg) on the
way home. Altogether 10 days for two round trips.

Aerospool do a terrific job. Mine cost around 16,000 Euro in 2012 including
the fitting of a Strobl solar panel.

To address the first question: The 27 is better in strong conditions, the
Ventus is better when thermals 2kts. Other than that it is a matter of
aesthetics.

Jim

On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 2:32:35 PM UTC-5, Papa3 wrote:
Recent conversation with a well-known commercial glider repair station owner.

Me: How much (ballpark) would it cost to get a 15M glider refinished in Poly. Assume standard crazing and no repairs required.

Him: Wouldn't touch it for less than $25K.

Me: That's not as bad as I thought.

Him: Yeah, well, as soon as you say that I'd raise the price to $30K. And I'd keep raising it until you give up. :-)

Our club is on our 3rd full refinish in the last 8 years (different ships). Even with a dozen or more skilled/semi-skilled helpers available, I'm getting kinda burned out. Couldn't imagine doing 3 or 4 per year!

P3



On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 11:00:16 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Monday, December 23, 2019 at 10:04:18 AM UTC-5, Nick Kennedy wrote:
A question for Hank Nixon and other refinishers.
How much in 2020 to drop one of these planes off at your shop and get it Completely refinished? All the extras- total price ?
Thanks in advance!

A good bet is to join a couple others and send to M&D or one of the other resources in Europe. I understand cost is about $30,000, plus portion of shipping.
I don't know who in the US is actively seeking refinish work. Maybe Williams in CA, Fidel in NM.
Ball park in the US is about $30K for the whole job if you can find an interested shop.
FWIW
UH

There is a real opportunity in the US for a couple of motivated people to get into the refinishing business. The market is there.
The work is tedious, sometimes tiring, and messy.
I does not require a lot of capital to get started. It does need an experienced person to guide and advise until experience is gained.
The reward is the pleasure of making rats into beauties.
And it can supply an opportunity for steady work.
With the trend to finishing in AU the character of the work has changed a bit.
The removal part is the same as it was. There are some things that can help to shorten he time, but experience must be gained.
The prep for painting is longer than with polyester because the surface must be better. There isn't much to sand out flaws.
Spraying takes a bit more skill.
Sand out and polish is much quicker and easier.
It isn't hopeless, but it isn't trivial either.
UH

Nick- Give precedence to advice from pilots who have owned/flown both.

My 2 cents: Loved my 27B, never have flown the V2. With the 27B in western conditions, anything over a 3.33 knot day (standard IGC thermal at the time of design) is full ballast. Handling full is remarkably quick and it climbs really well at that high wing loading. It's also very easy to fly in good conditions as a flapped ship- you basically just have thermalling flap and running flap and it settles into correct speeds nicely without re-trimming in both modes. Knowing Gerhard Waibel and having worked with him some through the IGC Sailplane Development Panel, he did it all with lots of margin for error- outstanding engineering. Safe. Able to land really short in a jam and has very effective spoiler/landing flap combo. Good roll control until the end with the AS flap/aileron mixer.

Full of water, 27B performance is arguably still state of the art in 15m. Last year, at the South African Nationals where new JS-3 15m entries were the bulk of the racing class- 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place were all ASW-27's if memory serves right. Mostly strong conditions throughout the contest. I can't seem to find this year's results. I'm not anti-JS, I fly the JS1C-21M now and it is spectacular. But the 27B is an absolute bargain if you find a decent one at market pricing. It would scream over the San Juan's.

Another factor to consider: Differences between the 27 and 27B were small- going to a wet tank and taller winglets. With the V2, how many changes were made over the years to keep up? There are so many combinations of tails, fuselages, winglets, etc. that you can hardly keep track of all the different versions. Gerhard essentially got it right from the start, with the design only seeing minor tweaks over a very long and successful production run. A remarkable design when introduced, and still remarkable.

Gary Osoba

On Tuesday, December 24, 2019 at 12:46:16 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Nick- Give precedence to advice from pilots who have owned/flown both.

My 2 cents: Loved my 27B, never have flown the V2. With the 27B in western conditions, anything over a 3.33 knot day (standard IGC thermal at the time of design) is full ballast. Handling full is remarkably quick and it climbs really well at that high wing loading. It's also very easy to fly in good conditions as a flapped ship- you basically just have thermalling flap and running flap and it settles into correct speeds nicely without re-trimming in both modes. Knowing Gerhard Waibel and having worked with him some through the IGC Sailplane Development Panel, he did it all with lots of margin for error- outstanding engineering. Safe. Able to land really short in a jam and has very effective spoiler/landing flap combo. Good roll control until the end with the AS flap/aileron mixer.

Full of water, 27B performance is arguably still state of the art in 15m. Last year, at the South African Nationals where new JS-3 15m entries were the bulk of the racing class- 1st place, 2nd place, 3rd place were all ASW-27's if memory serves right. Mostly strong conditions throughout the contest. I can't seem to find this year's results. I'm not anti-JS, I fly the JS1C-21M now and it is spectacular. But the 27B is an absolute bargain if you find a decent one at market pricing. It would scream over the San Juan's.

Another factor to consider: Differences between the 27 and 27B were small- going to a wet tank and taller winglets. With the V2, how many changes were made over the years to keep up? There are so many combinations of tails, fuselages, winglets, etc. that you can hardly keep track of all the different versions. Gerhard essentially got it right from the start, with the design only seeing minor tweaks over a very long and successful production run. A remarkable design when introduced, and still remarkable.

Gary Osoba

I like my 27B, have a few flights in it and was happy with the handling and performance. Wish it was as comfortable as my ole ASW20L, now there was a great flying and riding ship. Wish my 27 had that same flap arrangement as the original 20, if you guys never flew a Jesus flapped ship then you are missing out. My wife also flies the 27 and likes it very much, although she like her ASW24. Bob