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#21
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
Mxsmanic,
Why? Most people don't have a phobia of simulation, and for things like instrument flight and ATC, simulation isn't different enough from real life to matter for most of the major concepts of both. Jeeze, not always the same again. Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences between sim and RL is complete, utter BS). Thus, if you really want people to react in a sensible way, you need to provide the context, which is simming. If you don't, people won't understand your post in the least bit. Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in sensible reactions. That's why people conclude you're a troll, not someone asking for clarification. -- Thomas Borchert (EDDH) |
#22
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
Thomas Borchert writes:
Your description of your "flight" would never, ever happen in the real world (which, BTW, means that you statement about the differences between sim and RL is complete, utter BS). Which aspect of the flight was unlike the real world? As I recall, I started at gate 35 at KLAX, was cleared to KLAS with LOOP4 DAG KEPEC1 at FL290, left on 24L (which is right behind the gate), and proceeded more or less uneventually to KLAS, with a few minor modifications to my route from ATC along the way. I did have to fight with the autopilot and FMS on the way in to KLAS, but only because I'm not that experienced with them yet. I'm getting better. In particular, I'm slowly figuring out how to change things en route so that I can adapt to instructions from ATC, instead of being compelled to let the FMS fly the entire route as originally entered. As I get used to it, I like the FMS more than I did at first. Thus, if you really want people to react in a sensible way, you need to provide the context, which is simming. Which part of the above doesn't happen in real life? If you don't, people won't understand your post in the least bit. They seem to have understood it without any difficulty. Since you have been made aware of this problem in your posts several times, the only logical conclusion is that you are not interested in sensible reactions. No. Another, more probable possibility is that it's not a problem to begin with, except in your own perception, which is not universal. That's why people conclude you're a troll, not someone asking for clarification. Virtually no one has reached this conclusion, apart from a vocal minority that finds me irritating. It's unfortunate that I end up explaining this to that minority in almost every thread in which I participate. If they would just stick to the topic, things would go much better for all. -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#23
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote: Pixel Dent writes: I think I read this section before; this paragraph sounds familiar. I always get instructions to "maintain," though. What's the phraseology when I get a block of altitudes? Or does it even happen with frequency in real life? How do I request it (or do I even need to request it)? In general (i.e. I'm sure someone will come up with an exception), you won't get things like cruise clearances, VFR on Top Clearances, or block altitudes unless you specifically ask for them. 99% of the time ATC gives you an altitude and expects you to stay there until they tell you otherwise. That doesn't mean you can't ask for a descent when your FMS tells you it wants to start down, but there are a number of reasons you may not get it. There may be conflicting traffic below you or the controlling authority for the area you are in may have letters of agreement with the surrounding areas that specify what altitude flights heading in various directions or to various destinations must be at. In addition sometimes the controller you're talking to doesn't control the altitude you want to head down to. For a given ground position there may be three different controllers handling different altitude blocks and your guy may not have time to coordinate or even be allowed to descend flights into the area below you. |
#24
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
Mxsmanic wrote: Which aspect of the flight was unlike the real world? You never left the ground? |
#25
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
Pixel Dent writes:
That doesn't mean you can't ask for a descent when your FMS tells you it wants to start down, but there are a number of reasons you may not get it. There may be conflicting traffic below you or the controlling authority for the area you are in may have letters of agreement with the surrounding areas that specify what altitude flights heading in various directions or to various destinations must be at. In addition sometimes the controller you're talking to doesn't control the altitude you want to head down to. For a given ground position there may be three different controllers handling different altitude blocks and your guy may not have time to coordinate or even be allowed to descend flights into the area below you. OK. But this is a bit worrisome in that the FMC apparently already calculates the optimal descent. If I can't start down in time, I may not be able to make the other altitudes in the route without holding or some other diversion to provide more time to descend. For some reason, the FMC seems to be optimistic about how quickly it can force the aircraft down. I have to deploy spoilers a lot, and that's even when the descent starts on time. Anyway, so I can just say "request descent" when I'm ready to start down? -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#26
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
Gary writes:
You never left the ground? Is that good or bad? What does it have to do with ATC? -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
#27
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
In article ,
Mxsmanic wrote: OK. But this is a bit worrisome in that the FMC apparently already calculates the optimal descent. If I can't start down in time, I may not be able to make the other altitudes in the route without holding or some other diversion to provide more time to descend. For some reason, the FMC seems to be optimistic about how quickly it can force the aircraft down. I have to deploy spoilers a lot, and that's even when the descent starts on time. Well, I don't fly airliners. I fly a single engine prop that rarely sees anything above 9000'. That being said I fly a lot of IFR and have never heard a pilot say "Center, my FMC says I need to start descending now." Somehow in real life they manage it. If you're having trouble descending fast enough in the Sim maybe you just need to slow down the plane to give you more time. Anyway, so I can just say "request descent" when I'm ready to start down? Sure. But even if it's approved that doesn't mean you can just descend at will to the airport. What you're likely to get is something like "AB123, descending and maintain one two thousand expect lower in 20 miles." In general what happens is you gradually get "stepped down" in altitude via a series of descents as you get closer to the airport until the final approach controller gets you down to whatever altitude is needed to start your approach (usually something like 2000' AGL). Once you're given each new altitude assignment the controller really wants you to hurry down to the next altitude and level off there so you get out of the way of other traffic. At times you'll even get requests like "AB123 I need best speed down to one five thousand, I have conflicting traffic." To really get a feel of how this all works I'd suggest you go to one of those live atc sites and listen to an approach controller. You'd be amazed how much you can learn listening to one for a half hour. At first it will seem chaotic and then you'll realize there are patterns to what he's doing with the planes. |
#28
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... Anyway, so I can just say "request descent" when I'm ready to start down? Affirm, exactly that. And if you are not going to collide against another aircraft or terrain, they usually clear you to descend. Gus Cabre EGYC |
#29
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
"Mxsmanic" wrote in message ... I live in Europe, so I don't really have those options. I try to read things on paper and online, and I fly in simulation, and I fly in network simulation (VATSIM) to practice ATC and to have some level of unpredictability in the simulation. Where in Europe do you live? Depending where you are, I could put you in contact with local experimental aircraft associations and/or simmers who are well versed in simulated flying. Gus EGYC |
#30
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Confusion about when it's my navigation, and when it's ATC
Gus Cabre writes:
Affirm, exactly that. And if you are not going to collide against another aircraft or terrain, they usually clear you to descend. I'll try that, then. Is there any difference between "request descent" and "request lower"? Can I be more specific, like "request descent to cross BUBBL at 12000" (if the FMC is trying to do that)? -- Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail. |
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