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#11
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote:
Jim Logajan wrote: "dirigible designer" wrote: Thanks for the suggestions to my question of how to join aluminum sheets [without rivets] for making a dirigible. Hi "dd" (Allen?). I am familiar with the history of aluminum airships. One remote possibility it to look into/experiment with aluminum soldering. Once upon a time I did not think it was possible to solder aluminum, but if you do a Google search on the subject you should find some information on the subject. It's not impossible, merely difficult. What about welding it? Might work with joining sheets to ribs, but sheets-to-sheets? Don't know either way, actually. :-) I never got around to experimenting with it, but I had considered trying to use a flux of some kind (something to deal with the formation or thickening of the oxide layer) applied between two overlapping sheets and then applying heat using a high-temperature heat gun. Some of the heavy-duty heat guns claim air temperatures near the melting point of some alloys of aluminum. |
#12
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
Jim Logajan wrote:
"Gig 601XL Builder" wrDOTgiaconaATsuddenlink.net wrote: Jim Logajan wrote: "dirigible designer" wrote: Thanks for the suggestions to my question of how to join aluminum sheets [without rivets] for making a dirigible. Hi "dd" (Allen?). I am familiar with the history of aluminum airships. One remote possibility it to look into/experiment with aluminum soldering. Once upon a time I did not think it was possible to solder aluminum, but if you do a Google search on the subject you should find some information on the subject. It's not impossible, merely difficult. What about welding it? Might work with joining sheets to ribs, but sheets-to-sheets? Don't know either way, actually. :-) I never got around to experimenting with it, but I had considered trying to use a flux of some kind (something to deal with the formation or thickening of the oxide layer) applied between two overlapping sheets and then applying heat using a high-temperature heat gun. Some of the heavy-duty heat guns claim air temperatures near the melting point of some alloys of aluminum. I just tried my hand at welding aluminum this past weekend. I'm putting a fuel tank together. Unless you have some major jigs, the sheets will warp all to hell before you get halfway down a joint. |
#13
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
On 13 Mar 2007 14:47:13 -0700, "dirigible designer"
wrote: I'm making an eight-foot study model of a personal lifting body dirigible design of mine. I believe the ribs will be made of fiberglass and widely-spaced for lightness. I want the skin to be aluminum sheet. It would be desirable to avoid installing a rib for every seam between sheets of aluminum. So, I would like some advice on what is the state of the art with infallible glue joints between hard aluminum sheets. I imagine there is no alternative to crimping the meeting edges as is done when sewing two sheets of cloth together. No way am I interested in rivets. Several horse trailer manufacturers attach the outer skin with adhesive and double sided tape. --Andy Asberry-- ------Texas----- |
#15
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
"Blueskies" wrote in message
t... "Rob Turk" wrote in message .. . snip I've used some 3M aluminum glue that : is stronger than the metal itself.. : : Rob I would like to see what 3M product you are talking about... Dan D. Hi Dan, This is 3M DP 490 Scotch Weld. We used it to bond our aluminum leading edge to the spar on area's where we were not allowed to use pop rivets. Rob |
#16
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
Thanks for all the ideas for joining aluminum sheets. I was amazed at
all the different versions of 3M epoxy there are. Should be one to suit my needs. http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediaw...Sum5COrrrr Q- I'll be back in touch after I gather some materials and put a few pieces together. high flight, Allen |
#17
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
"Rob Turk" wrote in message .. . : : Hi Dan, : This is 3M DP 490 Scotch Weld. We used it to bond our aluminum leading edge : to the spar on area's where we were not allowed to use pop rivets. : Rob : Thanks! |
#18
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
"dirigible designer" wrote in message oups.com... : I'm making an eight-foot study model of a personal lifting body : dirigible design of mine. I believe the ribs will be made of : fiberglass and widely-spaced for lightness. I want the skin to be : aluminum sheet. : It would be desirable to avoid installing a rib for every seam : between sheets of aluminum. So, I would like some advice on what is : the state of the art with infallible glue joints between hard aluminum : sheets. : I imagine there is no alternative to crimping the meeting edges as : is done when sewing two sheets of cloth together. : No way am I interested in rivets. : Stir weld it... |
#19
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
"Stuart & Kathryn Fields" wrote in message .. . I welded 4 aluminum gas tanks ( I busted the first two in an incident) and one oil tank for my Baby Belle. I don't remember having much warpage, but I also recall someone telling me to tack the things in a lot of places before finishing the seam welds. The things pressure tested to 14' of water the first time with no pin holes. Now if that doesn't prove luck is better than skill I'll eat a welding rod. I also welded some aluminum beer cans together, but they wouldn't hold mashed potatoes after I finished with them let alone a liquid. -- I have welded a lot of aluminum, including successful welding of beer cans. And I second all of Stewart’s advice. When welding .030 and up, you will want to tack weld even as close as every two to three inches before beginning your finishing welds. Skip welding helps as well, meaning weld between two tacks, skip between two tacks, and weld between the next. It will all help to avoid distortion. Also, clean, clean, clean. Scrape or buff everything with stainless steel rotary brushes, cleaned thoroughly in acetone or eqv. If you pick up any oil or grease anywhere, clean your scrapers and brushes and start all over. It even helps to handle everything with clean cotton gloves. You can leave enough oil from your bare hands to affect the quality of your welds, unless you keep your hands washed in acetone, which I certainly don't recommend. As for thinner than .030 or so, good luck without good fixtures. I have seen some soldering techniques advertised the might be very workable, but have never tried any of them. As for glue, I haven't tried many, but have had pretty good luck with 3M - 2216BA. I don't know how it compares to the others mentioned above, but it has worked well for me. On a seam of .010 with a half inch overlap, I personally think it might be workable, but haven't done it my self. And if you plan to glue, don't for a minute underestimate the value of cleaning, preparation and a good primer. When done correctly under aircraft conditions, actually mixing the epoxy and gluing your seam is only about 10% of the battle. Proper cleaning, priming and curing of the primer is actually more critical. Free advice, your results could easily vary. Max |
#20
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joining aluminum sheets techniques
dirigible designer wrote:
Thanks for all the ideas for joining aluminum sheets. I was amazed at all the different versions of 3M epoxy there are. Should be one to suit my needs. http://multimedia.mmm.com/mws/mediaw...Sum5COrrrr Q- I'll be back in touch after I gather some materials and put a few pieces together. high flight, Allen Bonded lap seams should be fine since the loads are certainly going to be extremely low. You should make some sample lap joints with different adhesives and pull test them. Grumman light singles are all bonded aluminum joints, including skin laps, and have been going strong for 40 years since the first Yankees were produced. Your biggest problem will be having even clamping pressure on the joints during gluing. Bonded metal joints are not super strong in tension; the strength is all in the shear plane. That means the parts will peel apart fairly easily and there should be a mechanical fastener at any corner of a skin. There was an AD to do this on the Grummans. John |
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