USA - All students must show "papers"

I happen to be a "resident alien" -i.e. green card holder rather than
a Citizen. I live here and have held a US pilot certificate for many
years both Glider and SEL.

There are a lot of people like myself who call this country home who
will have to jump through hoops just to get a BFR (I don't work for an
airline so doesn't appear to qualify as Category 4), or if we wanted
to work on a new rating, perhaps simply if I were to show up at a
glider operation for a couple of days and wanted a "check out" - that
would be a new training event at a new flight school - OK that'll be
$130, a repeat investigation and sorry sir you can't get a checkout
until we get TSA approval. Does that make any sense?, does that add
to flight safety or rather detract from it by discouraging additional
training?

As I interpret the ruling this is not a 1 time vetting of the person,
this is an approval process for each new type of "training" that the
"alien" seeks.

Strikes me the US has got it's priorities wrong again.
I recently passed through Minneapolis international
without having to go through a security check, and
this was while Airforce One was parked on the apron!
At every single other airport on this three flights
out, three flights back, trip I had to go through security!


If they think they can stop 9-11 style terrorists getting
flight instruction they're sadly mistaken, the ba$tards
will just get trained in another country.

At 14:18 14 October 2004, Acrawford wrote:
I happen to be a 'resident alien' -i.e. green card
holder rather than
a Citizen. I live here and have held a US pilot certificate
for many
years both Glider and SEL.

There are a lot of people like myself who call this
country home who
will have to jump through hoops just to get a BFR (I
don't work for an
airline so doesn't appear to qualify as Category 4),
or if we wanted
to work on a new rating, perhaps simply if I were to
show up at a
glider operation for a couple of days and wanted a
'check out' - that
would be a new training event at a new flight school
- OK that'll be
$130, a repeat investigation and sorry sir you can't
get a checkout
until we get TSA approval. Does that make any sense?,
does that add
to flight safety or rather detract from it by discouraging
additional
training?

As I interpret the ruling this is not a 1 time vetting
of the person,
this is an approval process for each new type of 'training'
that the
'alien' seeks.

Hi,

the ba$tards will just get trained in another country.

They can even get their training in the US under the new rules
as well.

What's to stop them? No security in the world can check the minds
of people and 130$ are nothing in the budget of even a one-man
terrorist-organisation.

Ciao, MM
--
Marian Aldenhövel, Rosenhain 23, 53123 Bonn.
Fon +49 228 624013, Fax +49 228 624031.
http://www.marian-aldenhoevel.de
"FOUR MORE BEERS!"

I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.

When I became a US citizen, I sent the required letter of notification
to Oklahoma city. Several weeks later I received my new certificate with
"Nationality - USA" on it. At no point did I submit any documentation
proving that I was what I said I was - they simply took my word for it.
Hardly "written certification attesting to my nationality", IMHO.

Tony V.

Ok, for the sake of argument...let's say somewhere,
somebody in the TSA has done some research and can
point out how this might help the war on terror...and
that glider pilots should not be whining.

How do the John Walker Lindh's of the world fit into
this plan? And I would assume in this day and age...an
instructor would notify authorities of strange behaviour
of a student...regardless of his/her nationality.l



At 15:42 14 October 2004, Tony Verhulst wrote:

I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says:
Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting
to
my nationality.

When I became a US citizen, I sent the required letter
of notification
to Oklahoma city. Several weeks later I received my
new certificate with
'Nationality - USA' on it. At no point did I submit
any documentation
proving that I was what I said I was - they simply
took my word for it.
Hardly 'written certification attesting to my nationality',
IMHO.

Tony V.

(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message
Good luck to you. My best advice: join AOPA, I don't think they have
any citizenship requirements and if it weren't for them,
general aviation would be nothing but a secret club working on better
anti-radar aircraft materials...


Been an AOPA member since 1989 and getting an early flight review
before Oct 20 is being seriously considered.

I may be able to keep flying myself but I won't be giving any more
instruction. No more "wings" hours for a beer, no more flight reviews
for friends and aircraft partners, no more tail wheel instruction
because it's fun. Why would an American citizen want me as an alien
to have copies of all their nationality papers. Hell, I could take
their identity, get flight training in an MD-11 (that I can already
fly, I just don't do landings) and go hit a building somewhere.

Andy

(acrawford) wrote in message . com...
As a "resident alien" this ruling strikes me as none to well thought
out. Interstingly, I assume (at least I hope) that when Immigration
issues a green card they do some verfication at the time. The card
also includes a photograph and a fingerprint. So, as far as I can
tell no new information is really being captured if agencies simply
talked to each other, but the flightschool (or rather our glider club)
is being made to jump through hoops with no added national security
and potentially a detrimental effect on flight safety if people are in
any way discouraged from taking additional or recurrent trainining.
Stunning.


US resident aliens may be interest in this email exchange I just had
with AFSP


Me to AFSP:

Your FAQ page includes the following statement

"NOTE: At this time, U.S. citizens, nationals, and certain aliens are
not required to use the AFSP. If you have any questions regarding
qualification for the AFSP, contact your flight training provider."

I am a US resident alien living permanently in US. I have held an FAA
pilot certificate since 1979. Am I included in the "certain aliens
not required to use the AFSP". I contacted my local Glider Flight
School and they were not able to answer this question and had little
knowledge of the impact of the new rule on flight training.

Thank you for your assistance


Andrew Durbin


their reply:

Mr. Durbin,

Currently we do not have anyone who falls under that special class of
individuals. You are still subject to the rule, even though you are a
resident alien.

Regards,
AFSP HELP DESK

Andy Durbin wrote:
Mr. Durbin,

Currently we do not have anyone who falls under that special class of
individuals. You are still subject to the rule, even though you are a
resident alien.

Regards,
AFSP HELP DESK

The "special class of individuals" is no doubt being reserved for Saudi
nationals, when their government voices their objection to our fearless
leader...

Marc

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TRAVEL/10/14...rty/index.html


Well at least we know where those TSA increased fees
are going for

In article ,
Tom Serkowski wrote:
Mark, read the reg again. As a US citizen you will be required to
prove your citizenship with original "papers" such as birth
certificate, passport, or naturalization certificate every time you
meet a new CFI. This CFI must make a copy and hopefully store it
where it won't get stolen for identity theft. See below for excerpt
of regulation.

Tom,

You may be right. A key factor here is where the FAA gets the
information printed under the "nationality" section of the FAA
license. If this is simply a reprint of the user-supplied information,
then (even by appeal for exception) there is no validity to
it as a nationality proof.

And it seems the "federal employee" section is more clear in the
verbiage you include.

Methinks we are heading towards a situation like Europe,
where as a citizen I must have a passport on me at all times to
be in my own country...it's a shame that the presumption may become
that one does NOT belong here...











If your CFI is a foreign national, he still has to do this, along with
himself going through the 3rd degree and $130 each time he wants
instruction. So the TSA trusts this foreigh national with your
identity, but not with taking flight lessons.

Granted it's a stretch, but I think the pilot community in the USA is
experiencing the first signs of what the non-Arian population of
pre-WWII Germany felt.

-Tom

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little
security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin

"As long as it's just the other guy losing his freedoms, I don't care.
But when it's my turn, I sure hope there's someone left to help me!"
Stupid Populace

(h) U.S. citizens and nationals and Department of Defense
endorsees. A flight school must determine whether an individual is a
citizen or national of the United States, or a Department of Defense
endorsee, prior to providing flight training to the individual.
(1) U.S. citizens and nationals. To establish U.S. citizenship or
nationality an individual must present to the flight school his or
her:
(i) Valid, unexpired United States passport;
(ii) Original or government-issued certified birth certificate of
the United States, American Samoa, or Swains Island, together with a
government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iii) Original United States naturalization certificate with
raised
seal, or a Certificate of Naturalization issued by the U.S.
Citizenship
and Immigration Services (USCIS) or the U.S. Immigration and
Naturalization Service (INS) (Form N-550 or Form N-570), together with
a government-issued picture identification of the individual;
(iv) Original certification of birth abroad with raised seal, U.S.
Department of State Form FS-545, or U.S. Department of State Form DS-
1350, together with a government-issued picture identification of the
individual;
(v) Original certificate of United States citizenship with raised
seal, a Certificate of United States Citizenship issued by the USCIS
or
INS (Form N-560 or Form N-561), or a Certificate of Repatriation
issued
by the USCIS or INS (Form N-581), together with a government-issued
picture identification of the individual; or
(vi) In the case of flight training provided to a Federal employee
(including military personnel) pursuant to a contract between a
Federal
agency and a flight school, the agency's written certification as to
its employee's United States citizenship or nationality, together with
the employee's government-issued credentials or other Federally-issued
picture identification.


(Mark James Boyd) wrote in message news:416dab5f$1@darkstar...
In article ,
Chip Fitzpatrick wrote:
Where in this does it state that an existing pilot certificate is all
that is required???

* DOD or Federal Agency written certification attesting to the
Federal employee's US citizenship or nationality,

plus their government-issued photo ID.



I have a FAA issued pilot license and section VI says: Nationality - USA.
This is a federal agency written certification attesting to
my nationality.
... etc ...


--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd