Converting a USA C of A from Standard to Experimental

New forum member, glad I found this resource!

I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of A...and am mulling over (because of some of the projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to convert the certificate over to Experimental.

If the conversion is possible:

1. How much of a hassle was/is it?

2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements onerous?

3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go back to Standard) if needed?

4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in the way of paperwork?

5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic?

I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much appreciated!

Thanks,

Rob S.

On Dec 2, 8:57*pm, RAS56 wrote:
New forum member, glad I found this resource!

I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of
A...and am mulling over (because of some of the
projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to
convert the certificate over to Experimental.

If the conversion is possible:

1. How much of a hassle was/is it?

It's up to your FSDO, no real problem here in
Sacramento...............I've done it twice! You will need a reason,
something like; I would like to add winglets and there is no STC to do
that, or Factory closed and parts no longer available, etc.

2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements
onerous?

Write a letter explaining your reason and requesting experimental -
exhibition & racing. If they grant your request, an inspector will
come inspect the ship and type out your new airworthiness cert. This
could be a DAR and he will charge for his services.

3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go
back to Standard) if needed?

You will need a conformity inspection by the feds or an A&P
scertifying the ship is in conformance with its type certificate. Any
mods not covered by an STC must be removed....ie, winglets, etc. Once
again, a DAR might be able to do this. By the way, DAR stands for
designated airworthiness rep.

4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in
the way of paperwork?

Call the maintenance section of your local FSDO.
Good luck,
JJ


5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic?

I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about
going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that
covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much
appreciated!

Thanks,

Rob S.

--
RAS56

Rob,

I found the process of taking my ASW-19b to an Experimental TC to be
easy.

I called the local FSO, and talked with a real gentleman in the
Airworthiness Branch. He asked me to fill out an 8130-6 form and
provide a program letter, then he came out to verify that the aircraft
existed, had a logbook, had Experimental placards, had a current
Condition Inspection, and its serial number matched the paperwork. It
took 10 minutes to complete. To me, the conversion was worth the
effort because I could legally put on winglets and a lifting
instrument panel, and inspections could now be done by an A&P without
IA.

The only "hassles" are (a) once a year you have to send a new program
letter in to your local FSDO, listing places you are going to be
exhibiting/racing, (b) if you fly it outside of the 300 nm
"proficiency area" centered on your home base you have to fax where
you're planning to fly, (c) you have to avoid flying over populated
areas, (d) you have to announce to a towered airport that you are
experimental, and (e) you can't use the ship commercially. Other than
that, you simply make proficiency flights, like with any other
glider.

Going back to Standard TC involves the same process - an 8130-6, an
annual inspection by an A&P (with IA), remove the Experimental
placards. The gotcha is that they want to be certain that it's in the
condition certified by the manufacturer. I'm sure this would be
involved, although I've never done it. Frankly, I cannot imagine why
you would ever want to - look at the hassle that the folks in Europe
are having with EASA!

-John

On Dec 2, 11:57 pm, RAS56 wrote:
New forum member, glad I found this resource!

I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of
A...and am mulling over (because of some of the
projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to
convert the certificate over to Experimental.

If the conversion is possible:

1. How much of a hassle was/is it?

2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements
onerous?

3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go
back to Standard) if needed?

4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in
the way of paperwork?

5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic?

I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about
going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that
covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much
appreciated!

Thanks,

Rob S.

Thanks guys for all the gouge! I really appreciate it!!

Looks like my first call is to the FSDO closest to me...in San Antonio...that is unless someone has dealt with the ones in D/FW or Houston and had less headaches.

Again, many thanks!

Rob S.

ps-any -19 owners done the lift up panel mod? Wondering if it is worth the hassle...

On Dec 3, 3:18*pm, RAS56 wrote:
Thanks guys for all the gouge! I really appreciate it!!

Looks like my first call is to the FSDO closest to me...in San
Antonio...that is unless someone has dealt with the ones in D/FW or
Houston and had less headaches.

Again, many thanks!

Rob S.

ps-any -19 owners done the lift up panel mod? Wondering if it is worth
the hassle...

--
RAS56

I flew a 19b for 15 years and 1,500 hours and never had an issue with
the fixed panel and I'm over 6ft tall. Don't change it unless you
have a real reason to do so. The canopy gas strut is barely strong
enough to hold up the canopy and is a real bitch to replace. Unlike
some gliders the strut is still under compression when the canopy is
fully open and you have to make a special tool that you hope will hold
it compressed while you do the installation. Do a good job on the
tool, if it lets go it could make quite a mess.

Andy

On Dec 2, 8:57*pm, RAS56 wrote:
New forum member, glad I found this resource!

I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of
A...and am mulling over (because of some of the
projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to
convert the certificate over to Experimental.

If the conversion is possible:

1. How much of a hassle was/is it?

2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements
onerous?

3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go
back to Standard) if needed?

4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in
the way of paperwork?

5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic?

I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about
going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that
covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much
appreciated!

Thanks,

Rob S.

--
RAS56

Be sure this is what you want to do.
An Experimental Certificate for Exhibition and Racing is what you will
get.
It will be limited to a geographic area, either by states or radius.
The "Operating Limitations" will require an annual "Program Letter" to
be sent to the local FSDO/FAA and placed in your aircraft folder.
Without the annual filing of the Program Letter, your Certificate of
Airworthiness validity may be in question until it is filed.
The Program Letter should state any contests or planned flying outside
of the area limitation specified in the Operating Limitation.
Any flying outside of the Program Letter can be amended by faxing an
update mid year.

There is no "flying for fun", all flights are considered practicing
for the next contest.
Send an email to Cindy at Cal City, Carocole Soaring and ask her. She
had a great article for SSA on this and you may find it if you search
on SSA.org

T

On Dec 3, 8:23*pm, T wrote:
On Dec 2, 8:57*pm, RAS56 wrote:



New forum member, glad I found this resource!

I'm in the midst of purchasing an ASW-19 that has a Standard C of
A...and am mulling over (because of some of the
projects/instrumentation/maintenance/etc) if it would be beneficial to
convert the certificate over to Experimental.

If the conversion is possible:

1. How much of a hassle was/is it?

2. Was the conversion worth the effort or are the FAA requirements
onerous?

3. How difficult would it be to put the genie back in the bottle (go
back to Standard) if needed?

4. Who do I talk to at the FAA to accomplish this and what's needed in
the way of paperwork?

5. Anything else to make me smarter on this topic?

I tried to search this forum for the answer, but only found topics about
going from Experimental to Standard. If there is a thread out there that
covers "going the other way" a link to it would save typing and be much
appreciated!

Thanks,

Rob S.

--
RAS56

Be sure this is what you want to do.
An Experimental Certificate for Exhibition and Racing is what you will
get.
It will be limited to a geographic area, either by states or radius.
The "Operating Limitations" will require an annual "Program Letter" to
be sent to the local FSDO/FAA and placed in your aircraft folder.
Without the annual filing of the Program Letter, your Certificate of
Airworthiness validity may be in question until it is filed.
The Program Letter should state any contests or planned flying outside
of the area limitation specified in the Operating Limitation.
Any flying outside of the Program Letter can be amended by faxing an
update mid year.

There is no "flying for fun", all flights are considered practicing
for the next contest.
Send an email to Cindy at Cal City, Carocole Soaring and ask her. She
had a great article for SSA on this and you may find it if you search
on SSA.org

T

Yes, certainly a case of being careful what you wish for. One local
pilot has had the Feds on his back for a while. They seem to be
insisting 1. No fun flights, 2. OLC is not a contest, 3. If glider is
based in State X then it can't be flown in State Y for the summer
months if the summer location is more that 300nm from the base.

Another local pilot changed his experimental ASW28 to standard cert
just to avoid the hassle, but it cost a bunch for the DAR sign off.
Standard cert was not available for my 28 when I imported it. If it
had been I would have gone standard cert without hesitation.

Anyway you don't need no winglets on a 19, nor a hinged panel as I
said earlier. Just fly it and have fun.

Andy

Hmmm,
My program letter simply states; N422DT will be flown for SSA badge
flights and regional and national soaring contests within the
continental US. My FSDO has had no problem with this wording for the
past 8 years.

On the tilt up panel, it makes getting in and out much less of a
hassle. It involves re-routing all electrical and pneumatic lines + re-
installing all instruments in the new panel. Costs a good $2000 if you
have it done. A new strut is requierd 1000n I believe.

On replacing the canopy strut in a 19/20...Grind a groove in both ends
of the new strut so a small cable can be fitted around the compressed
strut and held in a loop with a nycompress sleeve. Then lower the
canopy to line up the hole and insert bolt, then cut small cable off.
JJ

I have owned three gliders with experimental certs. All you have to
do to fly outside of your 300nm radius is FAX a letter to the FSDO at
the new location. Easy.
As far as the local FSDO guy/gal saying that OLC doesn't count as a
contest...it is supported by the SSA. Anyway, many of us have learned
over the years that every person at every FSDO interprets the rules/
regs the way they want. And of course, their interpretation is the
only correct one. Just smile, agree, say thank you and comply. Then
move on.

I love talking with FAA people at every opportunity to express my
frustration with this culture of individual interpretations of the
rules. The answers are even more entertaining.

The small effort needed to write a Program Letter and to use a FAX
machine when travelling is well worth it.

Anyway, that's my spin on this topic.

Guy

The "Operating Limitations" will require an annual "Program Letter" to
be sent to the local FSDO/FAA and placed in your aircraft folder.

I have seen this. I have also seen Operating Limitations that do not
specify that Program Letters be submitted.

I have looked for a FAR or AC that requires Program Letters (in
general) to be submitted for Experimental Aircraft. So far I haven't
found any such regulation.

-Pat