PLEASE NEED HELP with Cherokee 180 metal bulkhead problem under back seat

On 11 Apr 2005 11:41:56 GMT, (Jay Masino)
wrote:

Ben Jackson wrote:
On 2005-04-11, Darrel Toepfer wrote:

posted photo of the bulkhead damage:

http://www.whodat.net/cherokee180/damage3.jpg

How hard do you have to land to do that?! Do the wings have dimples
above the gear?


Wow. The first thing I did this weekend was grab a flashlight and checked
that area of my plane. It's perfect, thank goodness.

I wouldn't rule out some severe forward/backward motion of the wing
causing this, although it should be strong enough to take it.

If I'm not mistaken, the co-pilot side of this bulkead (the same side
shown in this picture) also has the external step reinforcement located on
it's rear side... Hmmm. maybe that's the next bulkhead back... I can't
remember.

Actually Jay,

This model doesn't have the external step on it. This Cherokee has
the no-slip step on the flap and the wing walk area. But no step
sticking down from the fuselage.

Although that is a good point. I think I had better get under that
bird and take a close look at the external skin. And follow it up
with a careful look in the maintenance/parts manuals. That could well
be where a step USED to be mounted. If there was damage that affected
that step and the frame it mounted to -- the idiot who did that
half-assed repair may have left it off.

Thanks for the idea Jay.


Chuck

Sorry to break the news to you, but that definitely IS structural. And
this is not an easy fix. The fitting on the left is the rear spar attach
fitting. What you are looking at is the aftermath of a fairly severe
"excursion" of the rear spar on that wing, probably front to back. I'm
not sure where you see repairs and extra rivets. Those on the attach
fitting and the ones going through the floor are all supposed to be
there. I do see the corrosion forming behind the fitting that is the
subject of a Piper Service Bulletin.

Good luck trying to hold someone accountable on a pre buy. I highly
doubt you will get anything back. For all the A&P knows, this damage
could have occurred after his inspection. Ever notice any new scrapes on
the affected wing leading edge or it's control surfaces, especially
towards the tip? This may have been a close encounter with a hangar door
or fuel truck. It does not take a huge amount of lateral pressure at the
wing tip to produce the type of damage in the photo. These wings are
made tremendously strong to not bend UP and quite strong to not bend
DOWN. But the only thing keeping them from moving front to back is the
rear spar and its attach point. Yours clearly flexed in and out.

Let us know what your repair quote is.

Mike

xyzzy wrote:

C wrote:

On 05 Apr 2005 15:58:08 GMT, (Jay Masino)
wrote:


C wrote:

Working on a 100hour just a month before the annual is due -- my
mechanic and I lifted the back seat to look at the cabling underneath.
Lo and behold -- we found a "tear" in an aluminum bulkhead under the
back seat.

The bulkhead is under the back of the rear seat and doesn't appear to
be structural as it is thin aluminum. But there is a steel brace
coming in from the flap area of the wing and rivited to the lower
outside corner of the aluminum bulkhead.


I'd be carefull jumping to the conclusion that's it isn't
structural. That steel plate is the rear wing attach fitting. And I
believe the
bulkhead that it's attached to is considered the "rear spar carry
through"
(like a "mini" spar). Cherokee's have a large center spar, but also
have
a front and rear attach point and carry through. The front carry
through
is behind where your heels sit when you're in the pilot's seat (under
the
plastic trim pieces). The rear one is where you describe.



However on mine, just next to the steel brace on the baggage door side
-- there is a inch long tear up from the bottom of the bulkhead and a
small buckle in the aluminum brace above the tear. Its like there was
a terrific upwards stress on the bottom corner of the bulkhead where
the steel is rivited and it tore the aluminum bulkhead upwards.


There was a person on the Cherokee Chat (see Jay Honeck's post) a few
weeks ago that had very similar crack and he posted pictures. I hope
this
isn't the beginning of a trend, or we'll be seeing an AD soon.

You're correct in assuming a "terrific upward stress", although I would
have hoped that a hard landing or bad turbulence wouldn't have caused
such
damage. You'll want to make sure you have a very competant mechanic fix
this. Wing departure, or severe twist, while in flight would really
suck. You might want to show this to your local FSDO, too. I hate
to encourage
and AD, but this could be a problem we might not want to ignore.

--- Jay



Funny you mention that...

I talked to the maintenance person at the FSDO today about this
problem. As soon as I mentioned that I had a Cherokee with a damaged
"Frame Assembly Lower Station" -- he replies "The one under the back
seat?". WOW! I'd hate to think this is a common problem.

Its looking like I'll either have to replace it with the same part
scavenged from another Cherokee, or call in a DER to design a fix and
then do the fix. Either way -- its going to be expensive!

I'm thinking that I'm going to go after a A&P for the cost though. I
paid a A&P for a pre-buy/annual less than a year ago. This problem is
not new -- someone tried a half-assed, partial fix with some rivits.
So, the problem was definitely known, not in the logs, not repaired,
and NOT identified during his annual inspection. And this was
something a regular A&P spotted as soon as we lifted the rear seat.
So, I think I'm going to AT LEAST get my payment for the pre-buy back
if not get full payment for repairs.

See attached picture. Sorry for the grime, I haven't had a chance to
clean up under that seat yet.


Chuck


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website if you want us to be able to see it


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Sorry to break the news to you, but that definitely IS structural. And
this is not an easy fix. The fitting on the left is the rear spar attach
fitting. What you are looking at is the aftermath of a fairly severe
"excursion" of the rear spar on that wing, probably front to back. I'm
not sure where you see repairs and extra rivets. Those on the attach
fitting and the ones going through the floor are all supposed to be
there. I do see the corrosion forming behind the fitting that is the
subject of a Piper Service Bulletin.

Good luck trying to hold someone accountable on a pre buy. I highly
doubt you will get anything back. For all the A&P knows, this damage
could have occurred after his inspection. Ever notice any new scrapes on
the affected wing leading edge or it's control surfaces, especially
towards the tip? This may have been a close encounter with a hangar door
or fuel truck. It does not take a huge amount of lateral pressure at the
wing tip to produce the type of damage in the photo. These wings are
made tremendously strong to not bend UP and quite strong to not bend
DOWN. But the only thing keeping them from moving front to back is the
rear spar and its attach point. Yours clearly flexed in and out.

Let us know what your repair quote is.

Mike

Hi Mike,

I met with a DER yesterday who has designed a repair for the damage.
Its not going to be as bad as first thought. And while the DER design
(plus 8110 form for FAA) cost was $450, the repair costs probably
won't push behond $1,000.

Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
upward and caused this damage.

If you look closely at the first picture posted on the 10th, you can
see two cherry-max rivets into the bottom flange from the outside
(rivets so poorly installed that they wiggle). THAT is how I know
this repair was previously known. I also recently found out that the
person I hired for the prebuy (on a referral) was the same person who
had been maintaining the plane for a number of years. So, the
suggestion that an A&P/IA would miss such damage through multiple
annuals and a pre-buy is just plan nonsense. If he is THAT
incompetent -- he shouldn't have a license to screw up further work.

Anyway - thanks for the information Mike. None of that mess was
corrosion by the way -- its just years of dirt/dust mixed with spray
on lubricant. The first picture shows it after I brushed it a bit and
vacuumed. I'm off tomorrow for a bunch of rivet pulling, buying some
aluminum, and riveting in repairs. I'll be sure to post a couple
pictures when we finish the designed repairs.


Chuck
N7398W

C wrote:

Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
upward and caused this damage.

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

C wrote:

Talking with the DER, we're pretty sure we figured out when this
happened. The only damage history on the plane was an "off-runway"
excursion back in '92. The logs show the nose gear collapsed, the
engine/cowl stuck, and of course a sudden engine stop. The logs show
the engine teardown/rebuild and replacing everything forward of the
firewall, but that's it. We're pretty sure the sudden rearward force
on the mains as it departed the runway flexed the rear of the wing
upward and caused this damage.

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
says verbatum, but it was something like:

"Off end runway excursion. Nose gear collapsed, prop and engine
struck, engine incurred sudden stop. Sent engine to PenYan for
teardown/inspection/build up. Replaced everything forward of firewall
with new or serviceable."

Apparently he didn't feel that the little damage to the frame member
was worth mentioning or repairing correctly. Admittedly, compared to
the mangled nose gear and cowl -- that tear in the aluminum frame
member would have seemed very minor. But it was still damaged and he
should have repaired it correctly -- instead of just sticking some
cherry-max rivets in it and ignoring it.

Oh, and "NO" -- Cherokees can handle "off-pavement" just fine. I've
had this and another Cherokee on soft fields many times with no
difficulty. But whatever this dufus did back in '92 was sufficiently
fast and violent to collapse the nose gear. So, I guess some damage
to the rear-wing-strut attachment point shouldn't be too surprising.



Chuck

On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:54:27 GMT, C wrote:

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack apart?

Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
says verbatum, but it was something like:

It is obvious this plane was in a major accident, and the wing damage
occurred at that time. It is not surprising that the damage and
repair to the wing spar box is not noted in the logs. Many
prospective buyers would take a pass on a plane that has had airframe
damage relating to the wingspar or spar box. Given the timeframe of
the damage (early 90s) there was probably heightened sensitivity to
the issue - The FAA released and then rescinded an AD for Piper
Cherokee wingspars in the late 80s.

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a ball
of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build. You
can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.

Best,
Karl


"Nathan Young" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 16 Apr 2005 04:54:27 GMT, C wrote:

So you're saying the plane hit a berm or something. Or are cherokees so
cheaply built taking them off pavement one time causes them to crack
apart?

Wish I could tell you! I don't have the logs here to give you what it
says verbatum, but it was something like:

It is obvious this plane was in a major accident, and the wing damage
occurred at that time. It is not surprising that the damage and
repair to the wing spar box is not noted in the logs. Many
prospective buyers would take a pass on a plane that has had airframe
damage relating to the wingspar or spar box. Given the timeframe of
the damage (early 90s) there was probably heightened sensitivity to
the issue - The FAA released and then rescinded an AD for Piper
Cherokee wingspars in the late 80s.

"kage" wrote in message
...

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
You can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.


Are you sure it was the same aircraft?

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

"kage" wrote in message
...

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next to
it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
You can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.

Are you sure it was the same aircraft?

C185E, airworthy in '99, engine in '69. That reads about right for
something that slipped through the cracks for awhile...

Nothing shows up in a NTSB or FAA accident search either... Scary...

That's a good question. I think I'll look up serial numbers on the net right
now.

Karl

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
link.net...

"kage" wrote in message
...

It doesn't surprise me that damage isn't in the logs.

In 1969 I picked up a new Cessna A185E, N2764J, in Witchita. Right next
to it was N2777J. A month later I saw N2777J completely wrapped up into a
ball of scrap aluminum, with some EDO floats sticking out of one end.

Years later a friend of mine showed me his new airplane at Kenmore Air
Harbor. It was N2777J. I commented on how nice they did on the re-build.
You can guess the next.

The airplane was represented as a NDH, and NOTHING about the COMPLETE
rebuild was in the logs, not a word.


Are you sure it was the same aircraft?