Approach to an LOM/IAF with PT (not vectors to final)

The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

I'm kind of confused.
When or how did he actually clear you for the approach?

If he cleared you for the appoach and also cleared you direct NEPCO, then
you just shoot the approach straight in on the SDF once established on the
localizer. Since you were approaching from the south, no procedure turn is
necessary.

If he only cleared you to NEPCO, but didn't clear you for the approach, then
you should expect further clearance or enter the hold.

I don't think he would have given you a frequency change if he expected you
to do the full approach including the procedure turn, I'd only expect to get
the hand off after I was inbound crossing the IAF.

--
Jim Burns III

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"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

Jim wrote:

I'm kind of confused.
When or how did he actually clear you for the approach?

He cleared me for the approach about 10 miles out and then approved a
freq change. The paproach does not say "NO PT", so is it legit to
assume that I do not need to do one?


If he cleared you for the appoach and also cleared you direct NEPCO, then
you just shoot the approach straight in on the SDF once established on the
localizer. Since you were approaching from the south, no procedure turn is
necessary.

It does not say that in the approach plate.


If he only cleared you to NEPCO, but didn't clear you for the approach, then
you should expect further clearance or enter the hold.

I don't think he would have given you a frequency change if he expected you
to do the full approach including the procedure turn, I'd only expect to get
the hand off after I was inbound crossing the IAF.

The exeption to the rule when NoPT is absent from the chart is when you are
cleared straight in either via radar vectors or via a clearance, otherwise
you are expected to do the PT when you arrive over the fix that begins the
procedure turn. Because you were given a radio hand off to the local
frequency, I would have taken that to mean you were cleared straight in via
your clearance to NEPCO, but when in doubt ask, because as you say, you were
probably below radar coverage. I would have responded with something like
"N1234 cleared direct NEPCO, straight in SDF 2, frequency change approved"
That's usually what I do when comeing from the north into STE on the GPS 21
and I usually get a "roger" or "read back correct". If he wants you to do
the full procedure turn that would give him a chance to make his clearance
clearer
--
Jim Burns III

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"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...


Jim wrote:

I'm kind of confused.
When or how did he actually clear you for the approach?

He cleared me for the approach about 10 miles out and then approved a
freq change. The paproach does not say "NO PT", so is it legit to
assume that I do not need to do one?


If he cleared you for the appoach and also cleared you direct NEPCO,
then
you just shoot the approach straight in on the SDF once established on
the
localizer. Since you were approaching from the south, no procedure turn
is
necessary.

It does not say that in the approach plate.


If he only cleared you to NEPCO, but didn't clear you for the approach,
then
you should expect further clearance or enter the hold.

I don't think he would have given you a frequency change if he expected
you
to do the full approach including the procedure turn, I'd only expect to
get
the hand off after I was inbound crossing the IAF.

"Jim" wrote in message
...

The exeption to the rule when NoPT is absent from the chart is
when you are cleared straight in either via radar vectors or via a
clearance, otherwise you are expected to do the PT when you
arrive over the fix that begins the procedure turn. Because you
were given a radio hand off to the local frequency, I would have
taken that to mean you were cleared straight in via your clearance
to NEPCO, but when in doubt ask, because as you say, you
were probably below radar coverage. I would have responded
with something like "N1234 cleared direct NEPCO, straight in
SDF 2, frequency change approved"


Cleared straight in either via a clearance? What does that mean?



That's usually what I do when comeing from the north into STE
on the GPS 21 and I usually get a "roger" or "read back correct".
If he wants you to do the full procedure turn that would give him
a chance to make his clearance clearer


Why would he want you to do a full procedure turn?

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message
ink.net...

Cleared straight in either via a clearance? What does that mean?


Sorry. That should have been, "Cleared straight in via a clearance?"

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote
1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

Technically yes, you are required to do this. If there's no RADAR,
who is going to know if you do or not?

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

Not really. Your cleared route is direct NEPCO, so that's what you're
expected to do.

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.

Right. Or simply cancel IFR.

What if you can not raise ATC on the radio?

Then you have a comm failure in VFR conditions, right? So continue
under VFR and land as soon as practicable as per 91.185(b).

Yes, I know I'm stretching the meaning of the reg, but realistically
that's what makes sense.

Michael

Michael wrote:


Technically yes, you are required to do this. If there's no RADAR,
who is going to know if you do or not?

Dishonesty, especially in a non-radar environment, is the last thing the
system needs.

Another option. You could use the hold for a course reversal. "Roger
Minneapolis, cleared for the SDF 2, direct NEPCO, we'd like to do a lap in
the hold rather than the procedure turn." This would be a little quicker
because the holding fix is NEPCO. Right turn outbound, right turn inbound,
straight in and land.
--
Jim Burns III

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"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...
The Approach in question is SDF RWY 2 at KISW. I was coming in from the
south, nearly lined up with the inbound course of 021 degrees. I was in
touch with ATC. The LOM/IAF is called NEPCO. The ATC asked if I wanted
"direct NEPCO." I said yes. Within about 10 miles of the airport, the
controller said that frequency change was approved. I believe I was out
of radar contact by this time (radar coverage in the area is spotty).

1. Since there is no "NO PT" indicated on the chart, does that mean that
I am required to do a 180 deg turn when I reach NEPCO so I can track
outbound (201), then do a PT, then come back? That seems a little odd
to me.

2. If so, and I am assuming it is, should I have positioned myself to
approach NEPCO at an intercept that did not require a 180 deg turn to
get to the outbound course? Maybe come at it from the east?

3. Suppose that when I reach NEPCO (IAF), I am below the cloud deck.
Assume that I have switched over to unicom frequency at that point. Is
it permissible to abort the IFR approach and turn inbound for a visual
approach. Presumably, you would have to ask ATC permission to do this.
What if you can not raise ATC on the radio? Can you go visual on your
own?

-Sami
N2057M, Piper Turbo Arrow III

Jim, I like your idea on reading back for a straight-in. The thing
about doing a turn around the hold is that it seems to me to defeat the
whole purpose for the PT. As I understand it, the approaches have you
do this so that you are well-established on the SDF/ILS *before* you get
to the LOM. In this case, the PT or hold serves to destablize your
track and decrease safety. At least, that is how I see it.

-Sami

Jim wrote:

Another option. You could use the hold for a course reversal. "Roger
Minneapolis, cleared for the SDF 2, direct NEPCO, we'd like to do a lap in
the hold rather than the procedure turn." This would be a little quicker
because the holding fix is NEPCO. Right turn outbound, right turn inbound,
straight in and land.