China in space.

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 23:48:01 GMT, "Ed Majden"
wrote:


"Alan Minyard"
The moon flights were certainly propaganda. There is nothing left to
learn from manned lunar shots. I certainly hope that the Chinese will
not waste the human lives and tremendous resources that such a mission
would entail.

You don't know very much about science if you think there is nothing
more to learn about going back to the Moon. Leaving Lunar Science aside,
the far side of the Moon is an ideal place for a radio telescope as all the
man made noise created on earth would be blocked. Also an ideal place for
an optical telescope either manned or robotic. NASA is talking of a trip to
Mars. Hell, they had better get going back to the Moon safely before they
attempt going out further. They don't have the booster capability to even
do this today.
Ed


A radio telescope on the moon? You can't be serious. Do you have any
idea how many flights would be required? Al for an optical telescope,
earth orbit is far, far more practical. Moon missions are a waste of
time and money.

Al Minyard

"Alan Minyard"
A radio telescope on the moon? You can't be serious. Do you have any
idea how many flights would be required? Al for an optical telescope,
earth orbit is far, far more practical. Moon missions are a waste of
time and money.

I didn't say it would be easy. Earth based radio telescopes are getting
more restricted all the time because of the encroachment of man made noise
across the electromagnetic spectrum. The only place to block this "noise"
is by placing a radio telescope on the far side of the Moon.
As for Moon missions being a waste of time, there is still much to be
learned about the geology and origins of the Moon. Hell, we live on Earth
and still understand very little about it.
Ed

"Simon Robbins" wrote in message ...
"Gordon" wrote in message
...
I think this flight was a
monumental achievement for the PRC, but the postflight interview with the
Taikonaut seemed a blast from the past, with party slogans and embedded
phrases
that show their program is under the Communist banner, intended to spread
their
message into the reaches of space. That is sad, and I think it detracts
from
the accomplishment of the Chinese people.

That's a rather cynical view. Why should a Chinese Communist not be proud
of his country and wish to say so? He's also aware that his future
participation is probably dependent on pleasing those in government who hold
the purse strings. Funny how when an actress with fake tears cries "God
bless America" we assume she's being heartfelt, but when someone from an
opposing political idea issues a similar sentiment we automatically assume
they're being coached.

No, that is a realistic view. Granted that your example of the dewey
eyed actress is just about as accurate, but the PRC still seems a bit
tied to the old propoganda methods--reminds one a bit of the old "New
Soviet Man" crap bandied about in the old USSR. What Gordon was
decrying was the attachment of the propoganda byline to what could
have been taken domestically (in the PRC) as a proud accomplishment
without the hyperbole, which detracts a bit.

Brooks


Si

Andreas Parsch wrote in message ...
robert arndt wrote:

There is no "German" space program, it's all European (i.e. ESA). And
remember that Germany has been bashed recently for its _lack_ of
military enthusiasm.

Wrong again Andreas. Any transatmospheric bomber concept (which have
been studied by DASA before it was EADS) would be Luftwaffe piloted.

We talked about _space launch vehciles_ and not _bombers_. DASA can
study as much as it wants, but there never was - nor will there be in
the foreseeable future - a German military requirement for a
transatmospheric bomber.

The Sanger II was considered "dual usage" in the early '90s for
launching German military payloads (spy sats/LEO weapons/asats) as
well as being the basis for a TAB back in the DASA era. And how do you
know what Germany will do in the future? As space becomes more
militarized and Europe unites who is to say that Germany won't
participate in a much greater role and field hypersonic
aircraft/spacecraft with the intent to use as a military deterrent?
The Luftwaffe is current lacking in every type of military aircraft
category... but is slowly filling the void with the Eurofighter,
Airbus tanker conversions, future A400M transport, and design studies
for future UCAVs, bombers (updated Airbus proposals), recon aircraft,
etc... EADS is currently working on anti-stealth missile technology
and is suspected of possessing stealth technology with what is being
called the NATO Firefly II black budget aircraft.

Second, in case you're not up on the news, Germany has close to 11,000
troops deployed with a pledge of another 2,200 for ISAF and 5,000
ultimately for the newly created NATO NRF (initial contribution of
1,100 with build-up to 5,000 by 2006).

Yes, I know. And so what? This has nothing to do with a space program.

Your previous post claims Germany was being bashed for lack of
military committment yet since 1999 Germany is escalating its troop
deployments worldwide.... despite claiming in your own newspapers
about downsizing, lack of funding and being stretched too thin.

These figures do not count any
German/NATO/UN contribution of troops to Iraq in the event an
agreement is reached.

The current German goverment has repeatedly and firmly stated that
there will be no German troops in Iraq. The support for this in the
general public is 70%, so even the opposition doesn't dare to suggest
otherwise.

The opposition? Schroeder was the person who gave his unwavering
"support" to the US in the fight against terrorism but broke his word
during OIF. Then after the war was over Germany has been negotiating
with Washington to possibly reconsider the troop question "if" the US
were to cede authority in Iraq over to the UN and allow German
business contracts to be reestablished. FYI, German GSG-9 and KSK are
already in Iraq, protecting German businessmen, diplomats, etc...with
GSG-9 participating in a firefight a few months ago (no casualties)
when their convoy was attacked.

You are full of it with the "lack" nonsense
since even the Heer complained about rearmament AGAIN in 2003. The
first time was in 1999 over the Balkans. And FYI, German IDZ
supersoldiers are operating in the Balkans since July 2002.

Again, this has _nothing_ to do with space program. And by the way,
they're not "supersoldiers" ... the usual term would be "Special
Operation Forces".

You obviously don't know about the Infanterist Der Zukunft (IDZ)
supersoldier program. It is a 3 phase program to fully integrate the
German soldier with the future electronic battlefield and involves
many revolutionary technologies. The first phase is under way with the
first IDZ soldiers operating in the Balkans since July 2002. Phase 2
will be operational by 2005-6, followed by phase 3 to be operation by
2008. By Phase 3 the German soldier will bear almost no resemblence to
a conventional soldier. Utilizing EADS technology the Phase 3 German
soldier will be an aerospace/electronic soldier fully linked to every
German weapons platform operating on air, land, and sea. This concept
is way beyond the US Land Warrior Program which is still not fielded,
even in Iraq.

I guess
you don't bother reading the military journals back home or Germany
doesn't want that attention in its press. I guess you are unfamiliar
with the "German Army 2020" Program your govt. "forgot" to announce-
but thanks to a leak to the Pentegon, we've got it. It states that the
Germany Army will be completely restructured for ultra-rapid, global
warfare and that the Heer will be dividing into supersoldier "Jaeger"
groups that will fight in real time with the aid of ACRs, entire
families of wheeled AFVs, UCAVs, and ultra-sophisticated electronic
gear.

This concept is well known here. It's no secret that the German
military wants to transform into a "special force" with fewer soldiers
and more advanced equipment. No "leak" of any sort was needed for the
Pentagon to know this too.

Your Govt. likes to claim publically that the Heer is in sad shape and
will take lots of time and money to bring it up to a proper, modern
army capable of deploying anywhere in the world with the best
equipment. Yet Germany has been steadily updating the Heer ever since
reunification and the "German Army 2020" documents suggests that
Germany is moving forward with an ambitious plan to change modern
warfare taking the old "blitzkrieg" model and speeding it up
considerably. US officials that have seen the documents are amazed by
it and what it proposes.

Even if not built
and a German rocket is launched instead, German nationalism will
guarantee a different name.
Raumfahrer? Never. Raumjaeger or Jaegernaut, probably.


"German nationalism"?? Where (or when!) the **** are you living?!?
It's not 1945 anymore! For the record, I'm a German with a more than
average interest in space flight, and I have _never_ seen terms like
"Raumjäger" or "Jägernaut" (ridiculous!! - whoever thought of this
can't possibly be a native speaker of German!) in a German
publication
(since the late '70s at least).


Thanks again Andreas for omitting the origins of both those terms in
my previous post. And yes, I clearly stated that the publication that
came up with the term "Jaegernaut" was foreign.

You did, and what _I_ said was that whoever published it didn't bother
to ask someone who speaks German as their first language.

And BTW, your digression was noted ;-)

No digression as you alone do not speak for the entire German nation,
nor those responsible for the German contributions to ESA. I do not
like Jaegernaut either, but Raumjaeger preceded it when Von Braun was
developing his space rocketry and dreams (before they became
militarized into the A-4). And for the record, HAD the piloted V-2
(EMW A6) been actually built and flown by a Luftwaffe pilot in 1945 he
would have POSITIVELY been called a Raumjaeger.

Certainly, the Germans
will call their own manned space personnel what they want.

Germany _has_ (civilian) space personnel, and they're called
"Astronauten". And there is no German manned military space program in
sight - I really wish to know where you got to think otherwise!

Adopting foreign names is perfectly acceptable during this time as
Germans have only been passengers on foreign space missions. What I am
talking about is the future- Germany fielding its own spacecraft.

But on that
day is won't be a variation of astronaut or cosmonaut (as in previous
passenger missions).

Whatever you say ... I guess being a native German is simply not enough
for me to have any competence :-/.


Andreas

Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military
that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD-
you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what
will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe.
People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well...
you know what happened.

Rob

On Sat, 18 Oct 2003 16:29:41 GMT, "Ed Majden"
wrote:


"Alan Minyard"
A radio telescope on the moon? You can't be serious. Do you have any
idea how many flights would be required? Al for an optical telescope,
earth orbit is far, far more practical. Moon missions are a waste of
time and money.

I didn't say it would be easy. Earth based radio telescopes are getting
more restricted all the time because of the encroachment of man made noise
across the electromagnetic spectrum. The only place to block this "noise"
is by placing a radio telescope on the far side of the Moon.
As for Moon missions being a waste of time, there is still much to be
learned about the geology and origins of the Moon. Hell, we live on Earth
and still understand very little about it.
Ed

We would be better off spending the resources on deep ocean research,
something far more likely to "pay off" than mucking about on the moon.

Al MInyard

Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military
that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD-
you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what
will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe.
People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well...
you know what happened.

Rob

The fact that the Nazi's lost really, really bothers you, doesn't it?

Al Minyard

robert arndt wrote:
[snip ..]

Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military
that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD-
you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what
will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe.
People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well...
you know what happened.

Ok, I see, you're just what most people here call neo-nazi or, if in a
less politically correct mood, scum.

According to some Usenet law, I lost the discussion by calling you a
Nazi. I don't care.

Andreas

Alan Minyard wrote in message . ..
Its not about being a native German. It will be your govt. or military
that decides the name when the time comes. BTW, I am German by BLOOD-
you DO understand that, don't you. And IF you DO, then you know what
will inevitably happen if Germany becomes the leader of United Europe.
People weren't scared of Germany in 1935... but by 1939... uh well...
you know what happened.

Rob

The fact that the Nazi's lost really, really bothers you, doesn't it?

Al Minyard

No, the fact that history could repeat itself really bothers most of
humanity. When Germany reunited in 1990 alot of Germans and most of
Europe nervously watched the night celebrations and compared them to
the Nuremberg rallies of the '30s. It was quite chilling for those
that remembered history. For some the question of "Black Phoenix
Rising" is still troubling given Germany's future position in a United
Europe and the fears that the German character has not changed in 6
decades. Nazism still survives in Germany and to an extent in the
Bundeswehr. Many German journalists, especially for Der Spiegel, have
exposed continued interest in the Third Reich, Germany's xenophobia,
neo-nazi racism and the role Munich plays at its center, German
anti-semitism, etc, etc, etc...
Frank Capra warned everyone in his WW2 series "Why We Fight" that if
the German character does not change then a new generation of Germans
will find a new leader to follow and the world would suffer again
(from "Here is Germany", 1945).
It would do everyone well to heed his warning. But people like you
still think the US will remain the sole superpower forever. What utter
stupidity. Unity is what is making China stronger. And European unity
will make them stronger. Our nation OTOH is increasingly divided.
Think about that. And don't start with how powerful we are since we
are losing ground in Afghanistan and Iraq, haven't caught Osama nor
Saddam, and haven't become any more secure with Homeland Security. We
are just as vunerable to attack today as the day after 9/11.

Rob

In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

It would do everyone well to heed his warning. But people like you
still think the US will remain the sole superpower forever. What utter
stupidity. Unity is what is making China stronger. And European unity
will make them stronger.

A lot of people miss the fact that China is *fragmenting* in most ways
(rural versus urban, money versus poor), and is well on the way to
becoming two or more independent entities. They have a decent shot at
full-scale civil war in the next couple of decades, especially if they
don't come up with some hard solutions for their gender imbalance
problems (and finish their transition to capitalism, *fast*).

European unity? Please. While the EU is turning into a bureaucratic
superentity, the overhead that's coming with it is making the member
countries less and less powerful as time goes on - and most of them are
cutting their military budgets first (Germany and England for recent
examples). Not to mention that most of them dislike each other...

At the same time, the immigration that is key to stabilizing Europe's
shrinking population is *wrecking* society in a lot of places. Look at
the nationalist trend in *Switzerland*, of all places. Something like
27% of their voters came out in favor of a party that's, at best,
anti-immigration (and at worst, fascist).

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

"Chad Irby" wrote in message
. com...
In article ,
(robert arndt) wrote:

(snip)

While the EU is turning into a bureaucratic
superentity, the overhead that's coming with it is making the member
countries less and less powerful as time goes on - and most of them are
cutting their military budgets first (Germany and England for recent
examples).

England doesn't have a military budget.

(snip)