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#11
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"Chip Bearden" wrote in message om... (trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff) Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a transfer payment from your wallet to his. And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it could be me. Chip Bearden This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in SOARING. Vaughn |
#12
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Vaughn wrote:
"Chip Bearden" wrote in message om... (trimmed for bandwidth but great stuff) Just my opinion. Every situation is different. Remain calm even if the owner isn't acting rationally. Sometimes the best solution is to just keep smiling, keep soothing, and wait it out. Just because you can afford to fly doesn't give an opportunistic field owner the right to a transfer payment from your wallet to his. And keep thinking about the pilot who's going to land in the same field next year. Try to make sure he gets a nice reception, because it could be me. Chip Bearden This is one of the best posts I have ever seen here on ras. With a little fleshing out and a photo or two, it would make a great article in SOARING. I agree. I read everything Chip writes. His posting on "pilot relief devices" a few years ago is still one the RAS Top 10 Postings (make that one of the Top 5). -- ----- change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell Washington State USA |
#13
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At 03:36 15 February 2004, Chip Bearden wrote:
If you haven't damaged anything, be nice but try to avoid bending to extortion demands. I'm not a lawyer but my impression is that if the farmer refuses to let you secure your glider, he assumes liability if anything should occur. Most officers of the law are likely to be helpful in this regard even if they're friendly with the owner. If it starts to get tense, insisting on calling the local police/sheriff often helps cool things down; the irate owner usually doesn't expect the trespasser to call the police. A couple of years ago, I landed out while flying from the Blue Ridge Soaring Society's field in New Castle, VA. While I was only seven miles or so from the airfield, the owner of the field I landed in wasn't very pleased. In my case, there was no need to call for law enforcement because I landed in the field owned by the County Sheriff. When I approached the house nearest to the field, I noticed a sheriff's car in the driveway. Was the sheriff there on business? No, he lived there. As the door opened, it's opening was filled with a big man in a clean, pressed with razor-sharp creases, uniform. Oh yes, there was a BIG gun in the holster around his hips. Oh boy. He was a bit miffed. He explained while motioning with his hands, 'I've had gliders land in this field and I've had gliders land in that field, BUT I'VE NEVER HAD A GLIDER LAND IN MY HAY FIELD.' Gulp. He continued, 'But, it is the smoothest field.' I didn't say anything. He didn't ask for anything and he didn't get ugly. He just told me to drive the retrieve car as close to the fence inside the field as possible and don't drive right down through the hay. The time of year was early May and the 'orchard grass' hay was about a foot high. I tried my best at 'Land-Out Diplomacy' and I hope the next time someone (it could be me) lands in that same hay field, the Sheriff will be understanding. Ray Lovinggood Carrboro, North Carolina, USA |
#14
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I agree with Vaughn, this thread had me paying close attention.
I haven't started my x-country career yet, but in the limited reading I've done, the legality aspect was hardly addressed. I had thought that pilots had some legal right to land on private property, for safety's sake, much like people on the ground have a basic right of access through another's private property if that's the only reasonable way to get there. -tw |
#15
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There have been a lot of responses to my original post, but very little
addressing the legalities. I was shooting some clay birds with a lawyer yesterday, and I asked him about the applicable law. He knows nothing about aviation law, and the matter of rights to make a forced landing, but he could comment on the trespass. He said that there are two kinds of trespass, criminal and civil. In this instance, as evidenced by the call to the Sheriff, there was no criminal intent, and hence there was no criminal trespass. However, as we broke the chain, there is a case for civil trespass. For this, the land owner is entitled to be compensated for his "damages". As it was pasture, there was no crop damage. He suffered only the loss of one link in a three foot chain, and his time. It was legal information I was looking for, and the trespass issue seems fairly simple. I am still looking for information on the legalities of the forced landing, but the courtesy advice is well taken by all of us who fly X/C. "Charles Petersen" wrote in message ... We had two landouts at Seminole yesterday, both in the same field, - a pasture with cattle and a locked gate. One of the pilots visited a nearby farmhouse, and spoke with the wife of the property owner asking permission to enter and a key. She was very nice and called her son. He agreed to call back on the pilots cell phone. The Sheriff was also called and did not call back. An hour later, with both trailers at the gate, we called the Sheriff again and advised that we intended to cut a link in the chain, and replace it with a padlock when we left, and mail the key to the owner. This would leave his field secure, and there was no damage. The Sheriff's office made it clear they were not giving permission, and the retrieve crew made it clear they were not asking for permission, merely advising the Sheriff of their intentions, citing the approaching sunset and $220,000 of aircraft in a field with cattle. A bolt cutter gave entry, and we commenced derigging, leaving our most charming crew member at the gate. Both the son of the owner and the Sheriff arrived. The son was extremely upset, insisting that charges be laid. The Sheriff, seemingly somewhat reluctantly, fingerprinted both pilots and wrote up a proposal for charges, which he said would be presented to the public attorney to decide whether to proceed. Nothing further has been heard, and we hope / believe nothing further will be heard. My question is: - what is the law governing a landout on private property? What are the rights of the pilot and of the property owner? Where are these rights codified? The Sheriff said if we had done the same thing after he arrived, he would not have laid charges. He did not charge the retrieve crew with breaking and entering or trespassing. What about the crew situation? BTW, all concerned did act as 'ambassadors of the sport', but the son was implacable. |
#16
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At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote:
There have been a lot of responses to my original post, but very little addressing the legalities. I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts in mostly farming country with few problems. This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true; I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law was enacted back when engines were not very reliable and farmers kept getting crops destroyed. The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision in this state on this matter. |
#17
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"Nyal Williams" wrote in message ... At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote: There have been a lot of responses to my original post, but very little addressing the legalities. I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts in mostly farming country with few problems. This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true; I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law was enacted back when engines were not very reliable and farmers kept getting crops destroyed. The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision in this state on this matter. I suspect that most of the "problems" have been in areas with higher population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated, western USA, a lot of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to run cattle. That which is in private hands is often operated by hired hands for the absentee landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad land grant dating from the construction of the transcontinental railroad and farmed by leasee who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached by someone representing himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure that this person is, in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab a fast buck. Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and pilot ready to depart with no locals having made an appearance. In this case, the legal and proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff and report the "emergency landing" and provide contact information along with the exact Lat/long of the landing point although some would, no doubt, choose to quietly depart. In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting the landowner, I have been impressed by the hospitality. The only "problem" was a Nebraska farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because, I suspect, she just wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town all that often. Bill Daniels |
#18
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At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote:
'Nyal Williams' wrote in message ... At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote: There have been a lot of responses to my original post, but very little addressing the legalities. I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts in mostly farming country with few problems. This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true; I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law was enacted back when engines were not very reliable and farmers kept getting crops destroyed. The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision in this state on this matter. I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in areas with higher population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated, western USA, a lot of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to run cattle. That which is in private hands is often operated by hired hands for the absentee landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad land grant dating from the construction of the transcontinental railroad and farmed by leasee who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached by someone representing himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure that this person is, in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab a fast buck. Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and pilot ready to depart with no locals having made an appearance. In this case, the legal and proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff and report the 'emergency landing' and provide contact information along with the exact Lat/long of the landing point although some would, no doubt, choose to quietly depart. In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting the landowner, I have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem' was a Nebraska farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because, I suspect, she just wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town all that often. Bill Daniels It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness. As a protection before starting the season, know in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected to generate for several of the local crops, and keep these figures quietly in mind. |
#19
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I'm not a lawyer, however, as I understand it, an off field landing comes
under the heading of, "Any port in a storm maritime law." It is the same law permitting one to break into a cabin for survival purposes rather than die of exposure. You are still liable for damages, but can not be held for "Trespass." In case of a dispute, your best friend is the police, 2nd your insurance company. -- Thomas Knauff Knauff & Grove, Inc. Schempp-Hirth Sailplanes 3523 South Eagle Valley Road Julian, Pa 16844 Phone (814) 355 2483 Fax (814) 355 2633 www.eglider.org "Nyal Williams" wrote in message ... At 19:18 15 February 2004, Bill Daniels wrote: 'Nyal Williams' wrote in message ... At 17:30 15 February 2004, Charles Petersen wrote: There have been a lot of responses to my original post, but very little addressing the legalities. I fly in central Indiana and we have had some landouts in mostly farming country with few problems. This could be an urban myth -- but it is possibly true; I have heard that Indiana has a law on the books that says it is illegal to land an airplane anywhere except on an airport. Scuttlebutt was that the law was enacted back when engines were not very reliable and farmers kept getting crops destroyed. The farmers have been mostly cooperative. I'm sure that the FAA's distinction between an airplane and a glider would not make any difference in a legal decision in this state on this matter. I suspect that most of the 'problems' have been in areas with higher population densities. In the vast, largely unpopulated, western USA, a lot of the land is federal with ranchers leasing it to run cattle. That which is in private hands is often operated by hired hands for the absentee landowner. In some cases, the land is part of a railroad land grant dating from the construction of the transcontinental railroad and farmed by leasee who is in turn an absentee landlord. If approached by someone representing himself as the landowner, try in a polite way to insure that this person is, in fact, the landowner and not someone trying to grab a fast buck. Most often, the glider is in the trailer and crew and pilot ready to depart with no locals having made an appearance. In this case, the legal and proper thing would probably to contact the local sheriff and report the 'emergency landing' and provide contact information along with the exact Lat/long of the landing point although some would, no doubt, choose to quietly depart. In the few cases where I have had the pleasure of meeting the landowner, I have been impressed by the hospitality. The only 'problem' was a Nebraska farm wife who wanted to delay our departure because, I suspect, she just wanted someone to talk to since she didn't get to town all that often. Bill Daniels It helps to be on friendly terms with someone in agribusiness. As a protection before starting the season, know in general how much gross income 1 acre is expected to generate for several of the local crops, and keep these figures quietly in mind. |
#20
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I think it is Cambridge GC in England that instituted
a fantastic land-out diplomatic policy. Pilots, landing out, issued an invitation to the farmer and his wife to the club's annual dinner dance. Not only did this do wonders for public relations, I think they even managed to snag a few new flying members. I heard a wonderful tale of a local farmer telephoning the club rather concerned that he was going to miss the annual dinner dance. He added that he had kept the field mown and had erected a wind sock but that nobody had landed in his field that year! |
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