New 29 Palms Winchfest Video

One of the event participants patched together a good marketing video
for our club from this years Winchfest at 29 Palms California. Three
winches, four clubs participated in a "best practices" styled event.

Watch the Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hDZa41rVc

HoUdino

Nice production.

I hate to be a pooper of sorts, but I can't let go unmentioned a
dangerous practice that is seen to be deliberately done by pilots in
the video:

Taking off with a wing low.

This can put a glider on it's back, or nose straight down in a flash.
It is very dangerous and happens before the pilot can even react. Even
if he/she does reactr extremely quickly, it'll still put the glider
into the ground nose first at high speed. This has happened several
times and I saw a picture sequence of just that in Aerokurier years
ago.

In a cross wind, a launch should still be wings level - always. After
the glider is over the safety altitude, the pilot can correct for the
cross wind - not before. So as not to be distracted by

What happens is that should a wingtip drag enough or God forbid snag,
full rudder may not be enough to correct and the other, high wingtip,
will rise up, turning the nose to the ground. If the pilot delays
releasing for even an instant, the glider will continue rotating till
inverted and lands nose first inverted or it smashes into the ground
nose first, going 90 degrees or so from the launch direction,
depending on glider type and relative position, tip drag, etc...

So please. Always launch with wings level, even in a strong cross wind
till safety altitude. Winch Launches are different from air tows and
require different considerations.
action.

tommytoyz wrote:
Nice production.

I hate to be a pooper of sorts, but I can't let go unmentioned a
dangerous practice that is seen to be deliberately done by pilots in
the video:

Taking off with a wing low.

This can put a glider on it's back, or nose straight down in a flash.
It is very dangerous and happens before the pilot can even react. Even
if he/she does reactr extremely quickly, it'll still put the glider
into the ground nose first at high speed. This has happened several
times and I saw a picture sequence of just that in Aerokurier years
ago.

In a cross wind, a launch should still be wings level - always. After
the glider is over the safety altitude, the pilot can correct for the
cross wind - not before. So as not to be distracted by


I also noticed the consistent series of tip drops: with so many launches
lowering the same tip it looks as if this was encouraged (or not
discouraged) by the duty instructors.

Despite what the OP said, that was NOT best practise. Keep the wings
level and use the rudder alone to keep straight. Could I suggest that
the clubs in question get copies of the BGA Instructor's Manual and/or
the winch safety leaflet and make sure that all instructors read it
before again acting as a winch launching P1?

See S&G for April/May 2006, p38 for reinforcement. It has pictures and
commentary of a tip touch with an ASK-13. The P1's glove slipped on the
release knob so it needed a second grab to release. The tip is still on
the ground after 1 second and the main wheel is just lifting off. After
2 seconds the glider is airborne and has swung 40 degrees. That's one
place I never want to be in.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I certainly hope that winch launching becomes the norm in Southern
California where I now live. It's a far more fun and I think safer
method to get into the air VS. air tows, not to mention cheaper and
faster.

When flying in Germany, I had the pleasure of hundreds of winch
launches. The launch itself is a blast. As a result, air tows only
make up a fraction of the launches in all of Europe.

Living now in southern California, I hope that the local clubs learn
the best practices already learned elsewhere and avoid an unnecessary
accident. As with anything, if done incorrectly, it can be dangerous.
When done correctly, winch launching is very safe, IMHO.

tommytoyz wrote:
I certainly hope that winch launching becomes the norm in Southern
California where I now live. It's a far more fun and I think safer
method to get into the air VS. air tows, not to mention cheaper and
faster.

When flying in Germany, I had the pleasure of hundreds of winch
launches. The launch itself is a blast. As a result, air tows only
make up a fraction of the launches in all of Europe.

Living now in southern California, I hope that the local clubs learn
the best practices already learned elsewhere and avoid an unnecessary
accident. As with anything, if done incorrectly, it can be dangerous.
When done correctly, winch launching is very safe, IMHO.

I couldn't agree more.

I've done 52 launches during 2007, of which only 13 were aero tow - and
11 of those were during visits to another field which only offers aero
tow. The remaining two, one was when out field was too soggy to tow
cables out and the other was part of my annual checks.

Unlike some, I prefer to fly xc off the winch on the grounds that this
gives me foresight of conditions between 1200 ft and cloudbase, which
may be useful if/when I get low during the flight. The only drawback I
can see is that I'm useless at picking lift when on tow.






--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

One of the event participants patched together a good
marketing video for our club from this years Winchfest
at 29 Palms California. Three winches, four clubs participated
in a 'best practices' styled event.

Watch the Video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0hDZa41rVc

HoUdino

Having talked with a couple pilots who attended this
event, they related a few things that beg clarification.

1. They talked about some young pilot winch launching
a 1-26 who appeared to do a rather violent PIO on
launch. Which apparently resulted in his head going
thru the canopy, him blacking out and looping at least
once, possibly twice upon release before managing to
land in the opposite direction from launch. The pilot
was then taken to the hospital by helicopter.
Could someone else elaborate on this report.

2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

I'm no winch launch expert, just looking for some clarification

Soarin Again wrote:
2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

Bill should have made it quite clear that he was talking about tension
controlled winches, of which there are very few in use (and none in the
US). For a conventional throttle controlled winch, once the transition
has been made to full climb, you can pull to speed up ("water skier"
effect) and push to slow down within limits, if the throttle setting is
simply wrong you must signal the winch driver accordingly.

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

Not zero, but at a normal (i.e., not 45 degrees) positive AOA, ideally
that for best L/D. Hence the interest in AOA meters.

Marc

"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message
...
Soarin Again wrote:
2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

Bill should have made it quite clear that he was talking about tension
controlled winches, of which there are very few in use (and none in the
US). For a conventional throttle controlled winch, once the transition
has been made to full climb, you can pull to speed up ("water skier"
effect) and push to slow down within limits, if the throttle setting is
simply wrong you must signal the winch driver accordingly.

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

Not zero, but at a normal (i.e., not 45 degrees) positive AOA, ideally
that for best L/D. Hence the interest in AOA meters.

Marc

As for the story about the 1-26 pilot, I have spoken at length with people
who were in attendance at Twentynine Palms and they didn't relate this story
to me so I assume the event either didn't happen or is extremely
exaggerated.

The point I made about airspeed control is that most, if not all, all US
winches are underpowered and therefore tension limited. Raising the nose
will increase cable tension and reduce airspeed by pulling down the winch
engine RPM. I have never experienced airspeed increase with increased
backpressure. The math says that for airspeed to increase with increased
pitch ("water skier effect") the cable tension would have to be in excess of
the weak link strength - it ain't gonna happen.

What does happen is that the glider is still accelerating during the
rotation into the climb and some pilots (Mostly pilots with no airplane
experience.) will jump to the conclusion that there is a cause and effect -
i.e. since the nose is going up and the airspeed is increasing, there must
be a reverse airspeed/pitch relationship. In realilty, once stabilized in
the climb the airspeed/pitch ralationship is normal. (Pitch up for less
speed and down for more) With the power involved, the airspeed response to
pitch changes is slower than in free gliding flight which will surprise the
uninitiated. The effect is exactly the same as takeoff in a powerful
airplane.

Bill Daniels

It's always interesting to see how the ras chatter builds....

The incident with the 1-26 was an over-reaction by the local medical
services on an otherwise boring day municipally. Pilot was out of 1st
aid within an hour. An overspeed situation poorly handled by the
pilot.

Echoing Bill, each winch is different....regretably. As is each
club's operation...regretably. Each airports facilities are
different. The lack of detailed modern SSA standards in the USA must
be fixed.

A little dirty laundry is purposely shown in the video, due to my
belief we here in the USA need to "catch-up". This opinion infuses my
two reports on the Winchfest at: http://www.socalsoaring.com/newslett...sepoct2007.pdf

No time for witch hunt, but this is time for a little soul searching,
gents. Winch activity in the USA is on a rapid growth curve. We must
do better in 2008. THAT is the bell I'm ringing!

I look forward to a rousing discussion forward at this years SSA
Convention.

LT














On Dec 10, 12:16 pm, "Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote:
"Marc Ramsey" wrote in message

...





Soarin Again wrote:
2. I was at a seminar where Bill Daniels was quite
strong about the concept that pilots should lower the
nose to speed up and raise the nose to slow down.
I have been told that at this event pilots were told
the opposite, being raise the nose to speed up and
lower the nose to slow down. Why does there still
appear to be such opposing opinions as to what is
the correct procedure during launch? How can both
procedures be correct?

Bill should have made it quite clear that he was talking about tension
controlled winches, of which there are very few in use (and none in the
US). For a conventional throttle controlled winch, once the transition
has been made to full climb, you can pull to speed up ("water skier"
effect) and push to slow down within limits, if the throttle setting is
simply wrong you must signal the winch driver accordingly.

3. Pilots were told that while on winch launch they
are flying at zero angle of attack. Is this possible?

Not zero, but at a normal (i.e., not 45 degrees) positive AOA, ideally
that for best L/D. Hence the interest in AOA meters.

Marc

As for the story about the 1-26 pilot, I have spoken at length with people
who were in attendance at Twentynine Palms and they didn't relate this story
to me so I assume the event either didn't happen or is extremely
exaggerated.

The point I made about airspeed control is that most, if not all, all US
winches are underpowered and therefore tension limited. Raising the nose
will increase cable tension and reduce airspeed by pulling down the winch
engine RPM. I have never experienced airspeed increase with increased
backpressure. The math says that for airspeed to increase with increased
pitch ("water skier effect") the cable tension would have to be in excess of
the weak link strength - it ain't gonna happen.

What does happen is that the glider is still accelerating during the
rotation into the climb and some pilots (Mostly pilots with no airplane
experience.) will jump to the conclusion that there is a cause and effect -
i.e. since the nose is going up and the airspeed is increasing, there must
be a reverse airspeed/pitch relationship. In realilty, once stabilized in
the climb the airspeed/pitch ralationship is normal. (Pitch up for less
speed and down for more) With the power involved, the airspeed response to
pitch changes is slower than in free gliding flight which will surprise the
uninitiated. The effect is exactly the same as takeoff in a powerful
airplane.

Bill Daniels- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Speed is not controlled by the pilot on a conventional winch. Though
you can temporarily speed up by pulling on certain winches, that is
only a temporary effect, as the tension increases and the glider is
accelerated for a short burst.

However, that is really not a technique or effect that has much
practical meaning, one way or the other.

If the speed is too slow, the pilot has to slack off and be prepared
to release. How can the pilot know the reasons for the lack of
power?......pulling more just assumes it's only a winch driver related
issue - when it could be any number of reasons for the slow speed.

So yes, pulling will increase speed temporarily but only slightly and
pushing will decrease it, again only slightly depending on the
particulars of the winch - the effects are really not very noticeable
on a conventional winch. Pulling will reduce motor and drum RPM,
reducing the water skier effect.

Pushing will also not really reduce airspeed too much or perhaps not
at all depending on the winch, because motor and drum ROM will
increase when pushing.

But this is the wrong area to focus on in any case and can vary from
one winch set up to another - depending on the engine torque, glider
weight and engine RPM at which point the push or pull happens. But
again, it's academic and not practical from a pilot point of view:

I was taught this way:

- Wings level, not matter the wind direction
-Take off when sufficient air speed is reached with wings level
- If a wing drags on the ground for more than 1second - release
-Gradually rotate and increase rate of climb to normal climb attitude
within the safety zone to 200ft as airspeed remains constant or
increases
-If airspeed falls bellow a certain speed, be ready to push forward
and release ( In that order!)
-If airspeed falls even lower, quickly push forward and then release
-On the last 25% or so of the launch, gradually decrease the stick
back pressure. Remember that the launch is an arc with a constantly
changing climb angle relative to the horizon. So at the top of the
launch, the pitch is almost horizontal - so the aircraft nose should
also be almost horizontal there.

There has never been a case of a glider over stressing due to
excessive speed on winch launch, so that is not really a danger point.
But if it seems excessive, one can always just release and I've seen
that happen a few times, though rare. In any case, that is what the
weak link is for.

The only quick pitch movement should be when pushing over to release
in an aborted launch due to lack of winch power and speed. Otherwise
the pitch changes should always be smooth.

Keep it simple and do not try to micromanage the launch from the
pilot's point of view. There is no way the pilot can know what the
troubles are, if any - so he can not possibly know what effect
pushing, pulling or signaling will have.

This is all just my 2 cents.