New or reman engine for P210?

Well, the trustworthy engine (TSIO-520P) in my P210 has put in its
1500 hours or so without complaint, and it is time for a new engine.

The choice is a new or factory remanufactured engine. My trusted
Cessna sources in Santa Maria, CA favor a new Continental engine (at
about $37,000), but they are not particularly negative about a reman
from Continental (about $31,000). I've also talked to Western Skyways
about a reman. with the Millenium engine (very roughly $29,000). I've
heard good things about ECI cylinders but haven't looked into
specifics.

I've tried to look at old newsgroup threads on this, and some of you
have posted excellent information. But I am confused about whether
Millenium or ECI cylinders would really be an improvement over new
Continental ones. In some time periods, Continental has had problems
(although I hear good recent reports) and Superior Air Parts
(Millenium) has also gone through problems.

My number one goal is to have a reliable engine and avoid an early top
overhaul. Second, if a problem develops, I'd like to be working with a
company that honors their warranty to the utmost. Third, I would like
to think I am getting a decent price.

Any and all advice about any of these issues would be greatly
appreciated.

Thanks,

Phil Kellman

The choice is a new or factory remanufactured engine. My trusted
Cessna sources in Santa Maria, CA favor a new Continental engine (at
about $37,000), but they are not particularly negative about a reman
from Continental (about $31,000). I've also talked to Western Skyways
about a reman. with the Millenium engine (very roughly $29,000).

Crikey, Phil, why is your 520 so much more expensive than my Lycoming O-540?
Last year I was able to have my O-540 field overhauled (by a guy who's been
in the biz for 40 years), with all new Millennium cylinders, for $18K. I
think a factory reman was around $25K at the time.

Is there something special about your Continental, or have prices really
gone up that much in a year?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Jay, it's probably because of the turbo, bleed air for cabin pressurization,
fuel injection, pressurized mags, stuff like that.

Best regards,

Steve Robertson
N4732J 1967 Beechcraft Musketeer

Jay Honeck wrote:

The choice is a new or factory remanufactured engine. My trusted
Cessna sources in Santa Maria, CA favor a new Continental engine (at
about $37,000), but they are not particularly negative about a reman
from Continental (about $31,000). I've also talked to Western Skyways
about a reman. with the Millenium engine (very roughly $29,000).

Crikey, Phil, why is your 520 so much more expensive than my Lycoming O-540?
Last year I was able to have my O-540 field overhauled (by a guy who's been
in the biz for 40 years), with all new Millennium cylinders, for $18K. I
think a factory reman was around $25K at the time.

Is there something special about your Continental, or have prices really
gone up that much in a year?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

Good question, Jay. One of the reasons I am posting is that the prices
do sound high. My mechanic got the prices for me, and when I asked how
we were doing in terms of price, he said we were not too far off the
Air Power (van Bortel) prices, which are $300 over factory invoice. I
checked, and he is correct about this.

The Air Power website shows prices around $34K for a new O-540
(factory rebuilt is $23K, a big difference). A TIO540A is shown as new
for $68K and $42K for rebuilt. The model for the Malibu Mirage
(TIO540AB?) is about $93K for a new engine.

These prices do seem considerably higher than when I checked a year or
so ago, but I can't say I've ever looked this closely before. Maybe
the economy is recovering faster than we thought, or maybe there has
been a price jump in honor of those of us who will do our engines this
year!

I've been advised against a field overhaul, because the aircraft had
one last time (nearly 1500 hours ago). I'm probably not as clear as I
should be about what my mechanic's concerns are, but we are probably
looking at new or reman.

Thanks for your input,

-Phil


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:9usqb.127688$HS4.1018541@attbi_s01...
The choice is a new or factory remanufactured engine. My trusted
Cessna sources in Santa Maria, CA favor a new Continental engine (at
about $37,000), but they are not particularly negative about a reman
from Continental (about $31,000). I've also talked to Western Skyways
about a reman. with the Millenium engine (very roughly $29,000).

Crikey, Phil, why is your 520 so much more expensive than my Lycoming O-540?
Last year I was able to have my O-540 field overhauled (by a guy who's been
in the biz for 40 years), with all new Millennium cylinders, for $18K. I
think a factory reman was around $25K at the time.

Is there something special about your Continental, or have prices really
gone up that much in a year?

Good question, Jay. One of the reasons I am posting is that the prices
do sound high. My mechanic got the prices for me, and when I asked how
we were doing in terms of price, he said we were not too far off the
Air Power (van Bortel) prices, which are $300 over factory invoice. I
checked, and he is correct about this.

The Air Power website shows prices around $34K for a new O-540
(factory rebuilt is $23K, a big difference). A TIO540A is shown as new
for $68K and $42K for rebuilt. The model for the Malibu Mirage
(TIO540AB?) is about $93K for a new engine.

These prices do seem considerably higher than when I checked a year or
so ago, but I can't say I've ever looked this closely before. Maybe
the economy is recovering faster than we thought, or maybe there has
been a price jump in honor of those of us who will do our engines this
year!

I've been advised against a field overhaul, because the aircraft had
one last time (nearly 1500 hours ago). I'm probably not as clear as I
should be about what my mechanic's concerns are, but we are probably
looking at new or reman.

Thanks for your input,

-Phil


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message news:9usqb.127688$HS4.1018541@attbi_s01...
The choice is a new or factory remanufactured engine. My trusted
Cessna sources in Santa Maria, CA favor a new Continental engine (at
about $37,000), but they are not particularly negative about a reman
from Continental (about $31,000). I've also talked to Western Skyways
about a reman. with the Millenium engine (very roughly $29,000).

Crikey, Phil, why is your 520 so much more expensive than my Lycoming O-540?
Last year I was able to have my O-540 field overhauled (by a guy who's been
in the biz for 40 years), with all new Millennium cylinders, for $18K. I
think a factory reman was around $25K at the time.

Is there something special about your Continental, or have prices really
gone up that much in a year?

Phil Kellman wrote:

I've been advised against a field overhaul, because the aircraft had
one last time (nearly 1500 hours ago). I'm probably not as clear as I
should be about what my mechanic's concerns are, but we are probably
looking at new or reman.

Not a good enough reason, IMO, but it's your money.

Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

Dave

Phil Kellman wrote:

I've been advised against a field overhaul, because the aircraft had
one last time (nearly 1500 hours ago). I'm probably not as clear as I
should be about what my mechanic's concerns are, but we are probably
looking at new or reman.

If the mechanic who would be making the profit of the overhaul recommends that
you avoid a field overhaul, I wouldn't worry too much about his reasons.

George Patterson
If you're not part of the solution, you can make a lot of money prolonging
the problem.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:9usqb.127688$HS4.1018541@attbi_s01...
The choice is a new or factory remanufactured engine. My trusted
Cessna sources in Santa Maria, CA favor a new Continental engine (at
about $37,000), but they are not particularly negative about a reman
from Continental (about $31,000). I've also talked to Western Skyways
about a reman. with the Millenium engine (very roughly $29,000).

Crikey, Phil, why is your 520 so much more expensive than my Lycoming
O-540?
Last year I was able to have my O-540 field overhauled (by a guy who's
been
in the biz for 40 years), with all new Millennium cylinders, for $18K. I
think a factory reman was around $25K at the time.

Is there something special about your Continental, or have prices really
gone up that much in a year?

How much more complex is the engine for a turbocharged, pressurized aircraft
than yours?

(Phil Kellman) wrote in message . com...
Well, the trustworthy engine (TSIO-520P) in my P210 has put in its
1500 hours or so without complaint, and it is time for a new engine.

The choice is a new or factory remanufactured engine. My trusted
Cessna sources in Santa Maria, CA favor a new Continental engine (at
about $37,000), but they are not particularly negative about a reman
from Continental (about $31,000). I've also talked to Western Skyways
about a reman. with the Millenium engine (very roughly $29,000). I've
heard good things about ECI cylinders but haven't looked into
specifics.

snipped for length

My number one goal is to have a reliable engine and avoid an early top
overhaul. Second, if a problem develops, I'd like to be working with a
company that honors their warranty to the utmost. Third, I would like
to think I am getting a decent price.

snip

My number one goal has always been to have a reliable overall engine
installation, which is even more important on a turbocharged single.

The engine itself can really be overhauled anywhere (at widely
variable costs), and realistically not have a significant difference
in "reliability". But the engine (w/mags and fuel system)is really
only one component of the installation.

I'm not familiar with the P210 engine installation, but am familiar
with many other turbocharged single- and twin-engine installations.
Critical components can include flexible oil and fuel lines, and
exhaust components-including stacks, wastegates, turbos and turbo
mounts, and controllers.

Quotes for "overhaul" from different shops seldom include the same
laundry list of these items, they can be overhauled, but often at
additional cost. Often, parts are "sorta" inspected, cleaned up and
re-used as they are not specifically required to be accomplished under
the definition of an engine overhaul. Personally, I would NEVER
(emphasis on the NEVER) reuse exhaust stacks on any turbocharged
engine at overhaul time. The stack material is only intended to last
for a finite number of heating/cooling cycles and operating hours. The
changes in the material are for the most part invisible, and
eventually result in bulging, alignment changes, erosion and cracking.

The other components (except for the fuel and oil lines) can indeed be
overhauled and placed back into service.

"Factory" engine pricing typically includes all these items, although
there can be a few items which are airframe installation specific. In
another post, you mention TIO-540 engines, which I am very familiar
with. The "extra" components I mentioned are seldom included in field
and custom overhaul shop pricing, but are included in factory pricing.
On a -J2B/D these extra components add up quickly, and represent
approximately $20,000 of the factory price. A Malibu Mirage engine
(-AE2A I think)has two turbos, with related mounts and extra plumbing
and two intercoolers (also with related brackets)-this is where the
large difference in factory pricing of what you would think are
similiar engines comes into play. Depending on the installation, an
alternator may or may not be included.

It is often problematic to duplicate the condition of a factory
new/reman (or for Brand L overhaul) turbo-engine installation on the
custom and field level at a comparable cost. If a field overhaul has
already been performed, it is more likely that some of the extra
components have been over-looked or passed-over. In these cases, I've
recommended factory engines for the overall lower cost/higher overall
installation reliability, not necessarily because I thought the
"engine"'s were any better.

I'm a paranoid mechanic that also occasionally flies, but again,
especially on a single, all the other items under the cowl also
receive special attention at engine overhaul time. When the engine is
out (and out of the way) is the best time for the baffling to be
repaired, the engine-related wiring and flexible plumbing to the
engine should be addressed also. It is the most cost-effective time to
do it, and if done properly, will often need little/no attention until
the next overhaul interval.

The bottom line is, I've seen/had more maintenance issues with what I
would consider to be "external" engine components, than the "internal"
ones. And when comparing overhaul costs from facility to facility,
always ensure that you are comparing apples to apples. Whether the
core engine has been overhauled, overhauled to new standards,
remanufactured, or new is an option based purely on the owner's
personal preference/budget/aircraft utilization.

Hope some of this helps;

TC

If the mechanic who would be making the profit of the overhaul recommends
that
you avoid a field overhaul, I wouldn't worry too much about his reasons.

On the other hand, most mechanics don't do field overhauls anymore, so...ya
gotta wonder.

Personally, I think it's crazy NOT to go with a field overhaul, if you know
the person's (Note that I don't say "shop's". I say "person's") reputation
who is going to be doing the overhaul.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"