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Best Overall Motorglider available today?



 
 
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  #31  
Old September 17th 20, 12:35 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

Very astute, Eric.

On 9/16/2020 3:20 PM, Eric Greenwell wrote:
It's not just the engine that may malfunction, but the pilot might
make a mistake.


--
Dan, 5J
  #32  
Old September 17th 20, 01:56 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Posts: 601
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy
  #33  
Old September 17th 20, 03:16 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

I'll just say you need to do a little more research (and not just on English) before you post. Most of what you have said is wrong, or in modern parlance, "alternative facts".

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 1:15:05 PM UTC-7, Dave Walsh wrote:
At 19:27 16 September 2020, Eric Greenwell wrote:
Dave Walsh wrote on 9/16/2020 9:06 AM:
I can't think of anything polite to say about Wankel engines... a
vibration free engineers nightmare?


How is "vibration free" an "engineers nightmare"? It's certainly a

pilots
dream!
After 200 engine hours spread over 25 years, I have not had a

significant
vibration induced problem! Try achieving that with a two stroke.

Here's some actual comparisons: a while ago, I searched the postings

on the
Wankel
powered Schleicher glider group for key words like "vibration", and

also on
the
DG/Solo group. There were few to found for the Wankel engine, and

they were
a
small minority of the issues discussed. The search of the DG/Solo

group
found a
LOT "vibration" issues, and they were the big majority problems.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to

email
me)

My poor use of English, perhaps I should have said the Wankel is an
engineering nightmare (without vibration problems)? Clearly some
pilots have reliable Wankel engines; others are not so fortunate. Luckily
we're in a democracy so we can choose which (unreliable) engine to
buy. Current DG models have Solo not Rotax engines. I don't like any of
them. There are some nice Japanese two strokes out there, just not in
any sailplane. Despite the reported lack of vibration the bolts holding
some Wankel engines together seem to have a habit of falling out?
Assuming all motor-gliders are unreliable seems a safe bet.

  #34  
Old September 17th 20, 05:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
2G
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Posts: 1,439
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy


Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom
  #35  
Old September 17th 20, 01:48 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy


Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
  #36  
Old September 17th 20, 01:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
John Iacobucci
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Posts: 3
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well.

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T


I would give a shout for the Ventus 2CXM. Great performance. Only one minor problem with the self launch mechanism (it wasn't the motor) that our AP mechanic could fix in two hours. Up and flying same day. Extremely reliable.
One can argue the Wankle is less vibration on the whole, but maintenance for problems would be problematic. Pluses and minuses.
I chose the servicable Solo and the handling of the Ventus 2CX

  #37  
Old September 17th 20, 03:39 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Peter van Schoonhoven
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Posts: 4
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:51:39 AM UTC-7, John Iacobucci wrote:
On Tuesday, September 15, 2020 at 1:48:13 PM UTC-4, Nick Kennedy wrote:
Didn't want to hijack the current FES tread so I thought I'd start a new one.
This topic came up over dinner a couple of weeks ago.

When you add all the following into a pot and stir, whats the "Best"
Say for Western Great Basin flying.

I think it may be the Carat, but I don't know much about it.
CX thinks its the DG 800 series, but all I know is since he bought that thing its been a endless battle to keep it running. But it does climb well..

FACTORS

Reliability
Maintenance required to keep it running
XC flyability, performance and control feel
Storability
Rigging
Initial cost
High density climb performance
Range
Cockpit layout and seating
Parts availability
Insurance cost
Landing gear complexity
Overall quality
Nick
T


I would give a shout for the Ventus 2CXM. Great performance. Only one minor problem with the self launch mechanism (it wasn't the motor) that our AP mechanic could fix in two hours. Up and flying same day. Extremely reliable.
One can argue the Wankle is less vibration on the whole, but maintenance for problems would be problematic. Pluses and minuses.
I chose the servicable Solo and the handling of the Ventus 2CX



Regarding the Pipistrel Sinus Flex:
Soaring performance claims are not consistent in all places where advertised and published in the owners manual, L/D numbers range from 21 to 30 . After flying mine a short time I believe with short wing tips (40 feet) the glide ratio is around 20-21, long tips (50 feet) around 25-27.

Visibility in turns while thermalling is very bad, in a Cessna 150 you can at least lean forward and look around the corner of the leading edge. In the SInus your head is behind the spar, you can not lean forward far enough to see. You would have to lift the wing to see where you are going in a turn and of course that would move the center of the circle you are flying. I am mounting cameras on top of the wing to give me a view above the wing. Hopefully that will help.

On the other hand, the SInus is fun to fly, extremely stable , roomy and very comfortable cockpit, makes a great two place airplane that easily cruises at 110 knots on 3 GPH , and you can operate from essentially every airport easily.

Peter van Schoonhoven
Battle Ground, WA
  #38  
Old September 17th 20, 04:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 465
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 8:48:10 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy


Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1


Airframe hours, years, charge cycles...

Anecdotally I got the impression that there have been more battery fires in FES gliders than fires in gliders with gasoline-fueled engines, at least in recent years, and the number of FES gliders is relatively small. Li-ion seems risky. Personally I hope better battery chemistry will be developed, that is both safer and has the needed energy density. LiFePO4 is safer, and its energy density is improving, some electric cars are switching to it. Other chemistries are in the pipeline.
  #39  
Old September 17th 20, 04:24 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

So, you've owned the Wankel and had problematic maintenance? Or you are guessing? The Wankel is an ICE, it has a fuel system, ignition system, cooling system, and belt drive reduction system as they all do. Maintenance tasks are identical in most respects with any glider ICE. Only if you have to tear the engine down completely will you see the differences (and here the Wankel is somewhat simpler, having 2 moving parts).

On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 5:51:39 AM UTC-7, John Iacobucci wrote:
One can argue the Wankle is less vibration on the whole, but maintenance for problems would be problematic. Pluses and minuses.


  #40  
Old September 17th 20, 05:01 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Eric Greenwell[_4_]
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Posts: 1,939
Default Best Overall Motorglider available today?

wrote on 9/17/2020 8:23 AM:
On Thursday, September 17, 2020 at 8:48:10 AM UTC-4, Eric Greenwell wrote:
2G wrote on 9/16/2020 9:10 PM:
On Wednesday, September 16, 2020 at 5:56:25 PM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
The Carat has relatively low performance according to a pilot I fly with often.
For me (cost constrain, strong tendency towards simple low maintenance, reliable, simple, safe and quick to operate with small risk of getting into trouble, minimal performance compromise, as close to pure glider as possible) the only solution I can think of is adding Self launching FES option to my glider.
I figured it would have got me home 80-90% of the times I landed out, and to a better landout place the rest of the time, have the potential of saving my butt if I make bad decisions again, and may allow me to fly when the tow plane is grounded, there is a long line or I want to fly from somewhere else, and would allow me to explore further than I would otherwise, and overall reduce my dependency on others.
Range is not a significant constrain, I rarely land out more than 100km from home.
Unless someone convinces me I am wrong, I will seriously consider adding an FES to my ASG29.

Ramy

Personally, I am not satisfied with the reliability and safety of the FES batteries and would not fly with them. The percentage of installations that have had fires is unacceptably high. Eventually, the glider community will acquire millions of hours of operational data to establish its reliability (or lack thereof).

Tom

What is the percentage of installations that have had fires? What would be an
acceptable percentage of installations with fires? And are the hours you mention
motor hours or airframe hours?


Airframe hours, years, charge cycles...

Anecdotally I got the impression that there have been more battery fires in FES gliders than fires in gliders with gasoline-fueled engines, at least in recent years, and the number of FES gliders is relatively small. Li-ion seems risky. Personally I hope better battery chemistry will be developed, that is both safer and has the needed energy density. LiFePO4 is safer, and its energy density is improving, some electric cars are switching to it. Other chemistries are in the pipeline.

Because there were significant changes in the FES batteries after the fires, I
think the current reliability should be estimated using the number of fires
post-updates. I'm not aware of any, but perhaps there are not enough
hours/flights/years on the revised batteries to have a good estimate.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1
 




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