F-86 and sound barrier

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force? Is
Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force?

Certainly the F-86 can break the sound barrier in a shallow dive. Many pilots
got thier first taste of sonic flight that way. I have read that a Canadian
pilot used to open airshows by doing just that in the days before sonic booms
were outlawed in most areas.

Is Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

Yes. Though anecdotal evidence suggests strongly that George Welch was
probably the first pilot to break the sound barrier there will probably never
be any way to prove it in the same way that Yeager's flight was. Apparently
though some time ago the Air Force took to qualifying Yeager's flight as the
first sustained supersonic flight in level attitude.

John Dupre'

"JDupre5762"

I have read that a Canadian
pilot used to open airshows by doing just that in the days before sonic
booms
were outlawed in most areas.

I witnessed an F86 braking the sound barrier as a young fellow at an
airshow in Regina Saskatchewan in the 1950's. Test pilot, Jan Zurakowski is
given credit for breaking the sound barrier in a prototype CF100 in 1951 or
1952. Quite an accomplishment in a straight winged aircraft of this type.
The Mk-5 Clunk could not do this as wing tip extensions were added to
improve operational ceiling extending the life of the CF100 for a few more
years. Jan retired after the stupid cancellation of the CF105 Avro Arrow
project.

Ed

On 22 Sep 2003 02:27:51 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

Yes. Though anecdotal evidence suggests strongly that George Welch was
probably the first pilot to break the sound barrier there will probably never
be any way to prove it in the same way that Yeager's flight was. Apparently
though some time ago the Air Force took to qualifying Yeager's flight as the
first sustained supersonic flight in level attitude.

John Dupre'

Indeed, the evidence is very strong. However, the eggheads involved in the
XS-1 program were well aware that Welch did it without running his recorders,
and had no intention of admitting it publically due to clear instructions from
the Secretary of the Air Force not to steal the XS-1s thunder.

After Blackburn's book was published and additional material showed up on
the internet, the XS-1 and Yeager defenders came out of their holes howling
like the Knights of Columbus did over the Sopranos.

"Lies, all lies!!!!"

"Show us the proof!", they demanded. So, we showed them what we had (and we
have a lot, some of which I got from the Welch family). "Not good enough!", they
cried. I mean, the evidence is compelling and I would not want to be on trial
for my life in the face of such evidence. But, if you understand the anal
thought process of the typical egghead, you'll also understand that nothing will
be good enough. On the other hand, the USAF quickly amended their claim for
Yeager to read; "in level flight". Clearly, THEY realised that the evidence was
enough to throw great doubt on their 50 year-old
milestone. Better to redefine the accomplishment rather than explain why they
buried Welch's forays in the weeks prior to Yeager's first Mach 1 run.

I can't blame the USAF for covering up the event. Most of their research budget
was invested in the XS-1, as well as their prestige. God forbid that a
production prototype should push past Mach 1 first!

After Welch's first "supersonic" dive, NAA was ordered to bolt the XP-86's
landing gear down for future test flights to prevent a repeat. NAA went along
with that for a few days, but ultimately let Welch fly it again with the gear up
with Kindleburger and Atwood's blessing.

After Yeager finally achieved the initial program goal of Mach 1+, the USAF
allowed NAA to run a fully instrumented speed run (November of 1947). Finally,
the XP-86 was officially established as being Mach 1+ capable. Yet, to protect
their precious XS-1 program, the USAF delayed announcing the accomplishement
until April of 1948, and never accurately stated when the flight took place.

Nonetheless, Welch flew the same aircraft, unmodified from the early October
flights and flew the same flight profile as he did on October 1. So, the
question I have for the eggheads is this; knowing that Welch had an aircraft
capable of Mach ; knowing that he had opportunity; knowing he stated he was
going to do it. Knowing that it was witnessed by hundreds on the ground; knowing
that Welch claimed he did it; knowing that he was first to report seeing what
has become known as "Mach jump"; can they prove that he did not exceed
Mach 1 on October 1, 1947?

Of course they can't. The volume of evidence (that mentioned above being only a
very small fraction of what is known) is impressive and impossible to ignore.

Wisely, Yeager has been silent on the topic but, without a doubt would have done
exactly what Welch did had he been in the cockpit of the XP-86. This is the
stuff guys like Yeager and Welch live for.

By the way, is anyone aware that Welch flew several combat sorties in the F-86
in Korea (as a civilian). Like Lindbergh in the SWPA, Welch was in theater
showing F-86 pilots the strengths of the F-86. Family members state that Welch
shot down several Migs during his brief assignment. However, unlike his Mach 1
adventures, there exists no evidence that this is true beyond his logbook
entries. To my knowledge, no USAF pilots who were there have substantiated
this.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote:
On 22 Sep 2003 02:27:51 GMT,
(JDupre5762) wrote:

Yes. Though anecdotal evidence suggests strongly
that George Welch was
probably the first pilot to break the sound
barrier there will probably never
be any way to prove it in the same way that
Yeager's flight was. Apparently
though some time ago the Air Force took to
qualifying Yeager's flight as the
first sustained supersonic flight in level
attitude.

John Dupre'

Indeed, the evidence is very strong. However,
the eggheads involved in the
XS-1 program were well aware that Welch did
it without running his recorders,
and had no intention of admitting it publically
due to clear instructions from
the Secretary of the Air Force not to steal
the XS-1s thunder.

After Blackburn's book was published and additional
material showed up on
the internet, the XS-1 and Yeager defenders
came out of their holes howling
like the Knights of Columbus did over the Sopranos.

"Lies, all lies!!!!"

"Show us the proof!", they demanded. So, we
showed them what we had (and we
have a lot, some of which I got from the Welch
family). "Not good enough!", they
cried. I mean, the evidence is compelling and
I would not want to be on trial
for my life in the face of such evidence. But,
if you understand the anal
thought process of the typical egghead, you'll
also understand that nothing will
be good enough. On the other hand, the USAF
quickly amended their claim for
Yeager to read; "in level flight". Clearly,
THEY realised that the evidence was
enough to throw great doubt on their 50 year-old
milestone. Better to redefine the accomplishment
rather than explain why they
buried Welch's forays in the weeks prior to
Yeager's first Mach 1 run.

I can't blame the USAF for covering up the event.
Most of their research budget
was invested in the XS-1, as well as their prestige.
God forbid that a
production prototype should push past Mach 1
first!

After Welch's first "supersonic" dive, NAA was
ordered to bolt the XP-86's
landing gear down for future test flights to
prevent a repeat. NAA went along
with that for a few days, but ultimately let
Welch fly it again with the gear up
with Kindleburger and Atwood's blessing.

After Yeager finally achieved the initial program
goal of Mach 1+, the USAF
allowed NAA to run a fully instrumented speed
run (November of 1947). Finally,
the XP-86 was officially established as being
Mach 1+ capable. Yet, to protect
their precious XS-1 program, the USAF delayed
announcing the accomplishement
until April of 1948, and never accurately stated
when the flight took place.

Nonetheless, Welch flew the same aircraft, unmodified
from the early October
flights and flew the same flight profile as
he did on October 1. So, the
question I have for the eggheads is this; knowing
that Welch had an aircraft
capable of Mach ; knowing that he had opportunity;
knowing he stated he was
going to do it. Knowing that it was witnessed
by hundreds on the ground; knowing
that Welch claimed he did it; knowing that he
was first to report seeing what
has become known as "Mach jump"; can they prove
that he did not exceed
Mach 1 on October 1, 1947?

Of course they can't. The volume of evidence
(that mentioned above being only a
very small fraction of what is known) is impressive
and impossible to ignore.

Wisely, Yeager has been silent on the topic
but, without a doubt would have done
exactly what Welch did had he been in the cockpit
of the XP-86. This is the
stuff guys like Yeager and Welch live for.

By the way, is anyone aware that Welch flew
several combat sorties in the F-86
in Korea (as a civilian). Like Lindbergh in
the SWPA, Welch was in theater
showing F-86 pilots the strengths of the F-86.
Family members state that Welch
shot down several Migs during his brief assignment.
However, unlike his Mach 1
adventures, there exists no evidence that this
is true beyond his logbook
entries. To my knowledge, no USAF pilots who
were there have substantiated
this.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com
Was this the same George Welch who flew a P-40 out of Halewia, Oahu on
the morning of 7 Dec 41, killing pair of Vals, a Kate and a Zero, before
being a P-38 ace in SWPA? IIRC he was KIFA in a F-100 in the mid 1950s.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:24:21 GMT, "Matt Wiser" wrote:


Was this the same George Welch who flew a P-40 out of Halewia, Oahu on
the morning of 7 Dec 41, killing pair of Vals, a Kate and a Zero, before
being a P-38 ace in SWPA? IIRC he was KIFA in a F-100 in the mid 1950s.

Yes, this was the same lunatic. LOL

Welch was credited with 4 kills at Pearl Harbor and his wingman (Taylor)
swears that Welch got another two that crashed out to sea. His wingman shot down
another two and damaged several others. Between them, they accounted for
6 kills, two prabables and several damaged. That's nearly 21% of all Japanese
combat losses at Pearl (as much as 28% if you counted the two probably shot
down).

Later while flying P-39Ds, Welch shot down three more fighters (one sortie)
bringing his score up to seven. After he transferred to the 8th FG flying P-38s,
he added nine more before a life-threatening case of malaria sent him home.

Welch is one of only a handful of American fighter pilots that scored kills in
three different fighter types.

Every time Welch shot down any Japanese aircraft, he got at least 2, and killed
4 on two occasions.

His peers believed that had he not become deathly ill, he would have challenged,
and possibly even outpaced Bong and McGuire in total victories.

As it was, Hap Arnold set up an interview for Welch with North American. Some
believe that this was his way of making up for Welch not getting the CMoH due to
someone in the chain of command disapproving the recommendation because Welch
took off without specific orders. Arnold was incensed with Squadron CO Maj
Gordon H. Austin, but it seems Austin probably approved the recommendation.
Although bounced back to CONUS, Austin was given command of a P-40 outfit that
he took to North Africa where he shot down 3 enemy aircraft while flying more
than 100 combat hours. Later Austin commanded the 319th BG (a B-26 outfit) where
he logged another 115 hours. In 1944 he was transferred stateside where he
served in many posts until he retired as a highly decorated Major General in
1966. If he is still alive, he would be 90 years old.

It's likely that someone in the USAAF command structure at Pearl Harbor gave
Welch the deep six. Who that was is unknown to me.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com

(Corey C. Jordan) wrote:
On Tue, 23 Sep 2003 13:24:21 GMT, "Matt Wiser"
wrote:


Was this the same George Welch who flew a
P-40 out of Halewia, Oahu on
the morning of 7 Dec 41, killing pair of Vals,
a Kate and a Zero, before
being a P-38 ace in SWPA? IIRC he was KIFA
in a F-100 in the mid 1950s.

Yes, this was the same lunatic. LOL

Welch was credited with 4 kills at Pearl Harbor
and his wingman (Taylor)
swears that Welch got another two that crashed
out to sea. His wingman shot down
another two and damaged several others. Between
them, they accounted for
6 kills, two prabables and several damaged.
That's nearly 21% of all Japanese
combat losses at Pearl (as much as 28% if you
counted the two probably shot
down).

Later while flying P-39Ds, Welch shot down three
more fighters (one sortie)
bringing his score up to seven. After he transferred
to the 8th FG flying P-38s,
he added nine more before a life-threatening
case of malaria sent him home.

Welch is one of only a handful of American fighter
pilots that scored kills in
three different fighter types.

Every time Welch shot down any Japanese aircraft,
he got at least 2, and killed
4 on two occasions.

His peers believed that had he not become deathly
ill, he would have challenged,
and possibly even outpaced Bong and McGuire
in total victories.

As it was, Hap Arnold set up an interview for
Welch with North American. Some
believe that this was his way of making up for
Welch not getting the CMoH due to
someone in the chain of command disapproving
the recommendation because Welch
took off without specific orders. Arnold was
incensed with Squadron CO Maj
Gordon H. Austin, but it seems Austin probably
approved the recommendation.
Although bounced back to CONUS, Austin was given
command of a P-40 outfit that
he took to North Africa where he shot down 3
enemy aircraft while flying more
than 100 combat hours. Later Austin commanded
the 319th BG (a B-26 outfit) where
he logged another 115 hours. In 1944 he was
transferred stateside where he
served in many posts until he retired as a highly
decorated Major General in
1966. If he is still alive, he would be 90 years
old.

It's likely that someone in the USAAF command
structure at Pearl Harbor gave
Welch the deep six. Who that was is unknown
to me.

My regards,

Widewing (C.C. Jordan)
http://www.worldwar2aviation.com
http://www.netaces.org
http://www.hitechcreations.com
There are two possible suspects:Brigadier General Howard Davidson, who
commanded the 14th Pursuit Wing on Oahu, or Major General Fredrick L. Martin,
who commanded the HAF. Unless there was a Pursuit Group CO somewhere in the
middle-weren't these two generals sacked?

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the F-86 and Mig-15
and heard that the F-86 can break the sound barrier. I know that this has
been claimed many time before but is that the official position of the US
Air Force? Is Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?
No, George Welch was the first to exceed Mach 1 in a dive with the
XP-86. See: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch2.html

I also have a better source, my father. He was part of the design team for
the Sabre at North American and they were informed about this BEFORE
Yeager broke the sound barrier. He had to keep mum on this for a long time
though.

In article , Dan
Shackelford wrote:

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the F-86 and Mig-15
and heard that the F-86 can break the sound barrier. I know that this has
been claimed many time before but is that the official position of the US
Air Force? Is Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

No, George Welch was the first to exceed Mach 1 in a dive with the
XP-86. See: http://home.att.net/~historyzone/Welch2.html

I think you misunderstood the question. The question isn't whether
it was Welch or Yeager, but who the USAF officially recognizes. At
this point in time, it is still Yeager.

-john-

--
================================================== ==================
John A. Weeks III 952-432-2708
Newave Communications http://www.johnweeks.com
================================================== ==================

On Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:16:00 -0500, VH wrote:

I was watching the Discovery Channel program comparing the
F-86 and Mig-15 and heard that the F-86 can break the sound
barrier. I know that this has been claimed many time before
but is that the official position of the US Air Force? Is
Yeager still officially the first man to break the sound
barrier?

Breaking Mach 1 was a standard flight in the curriculum for Perrin
AFB's advanced flight training school for F86D interceptor pilots.
You went up to max alititude, nosed over into a full vertical dive
with full throttle and watched the Mach needle hit 1 before reducing
power and starting the pullout. This was in 1957. No biggie, except
the ego trip of claiming membership in the Machbuster's Club.



John Bailey
http://home.rochester.rr.com/jbxroads/mailto.html