If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
The operating manual for the Becker ATC 4401-1-xxx transponder has the
following specifications: (http://www.beckerusa.com/products/de...4401-1-I+O.pdf) Max. operating altitude : - ATC 4401-1-175 15000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 50000 ft. and Flight level code (mode C) ICAO coding system 100-foot steps from - ATC 4401-1-175 -1000 to 31000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 -1000 to 62700 ft. Does anyone know what exactly this means? Is the 175W unit not really usable in sailplanes that plan to fly in the USA in areas where one would go above 15K? -Tom |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
5Z wrote:
The operating manual for the Becker ATC 4401-1-xxx transponder has the following specifications: (http://www.beckerusa.com/products/de...4401-1-I+O.pdf) Max. operating altitude : - ATC 4401-1-175 15000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 50000 ft. and Flight level code (mode C) ICAO coding system 100-foot steps from - ATC 4401-1-175 -1000 to 31000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 -1000 to 62700 ft. Does anyone know what exactly this means? Is the 175W unit not really usable in sailplanes that plan to fly in the USA in areas where one would go above 15K? -Tom Tom, The 175 replies with 175 watts & the 225 replies with 225 watts. I'm thinking the 175 is made for little bug smashers like we fly & the 225 is something you'd put into your C-210 or Piper Malibu and such. The 175 I've got seems to make the big brown turd looking Southwest jets kinda steer around my little glider even at 12-14k. I can make my 2 sets of batteries last about 6-7 hrs and still see 11.5 v in each set (8ah each set). I see the reply light going even on the Whites. It will even work up to 50,000' but it's only going to reply with 175 w. The closer you are to the antenna the better they will paint you. The more wattage you reply with the better and further they can paint you. I'd think that TCAS would pick either one up easily at 5-10 miles. As far as the steps go your encoder replies with pressure altitude in 100' incriments reliably up to the certified alt's (and probably beond but not certified). Russ |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
Hi,
I'm not so sure that the 175 model can (or at least should) be used above 15,000 feet. If I owned one I probably wouldn't turn it off above 15,000 feet, but the data below seems to indicate that it will not work above 31,000 feet. My guess is that they created 2 versions so that glider pilots that never (or rarely) fly above 15,000 feet would not need to extra power drain of the 250 W version. Glider pilots that fly over 15,000 feet often should (in my opinion) use the 250 W version - because it was designed for, tested, and certified for use at those altitudes. If the 175 W version would have worked OK at high altitudes, they wouldn't have needed the 250W version. Remember that the amplitude of the signal drops off with the cube of the distance. The range of the 175W model would be much less than the 250 W version. The good news is that the 250W version is only $200 more than 175W version. The brochure shows that the power consumption for the 250W version is a bit more. Typical Consumption at 5544 (1200/sec) - (I don't know what the "5544 (1200/sec)" means) 0.50 A at 13.75 V (250 W) 0.40 A at 13.75 V (175 W) I have links to the brochures and manuals on my web site he: http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/becker.htm I am not an expert on transponders, but those are my observations. Good Soaring, Paul Remde Cumulus Soaring, Inc. http://www.cumulus-soaring.com wrote in message ups.com... 5Z wrote: The operating manual for the Becker ATC 4401-1-xxx transponder has the following specifications: (http://www.beckerusa.com/products/de...4401-1-I+O.pdf) Max. operating altitude : - ATC 4401-1-175 15000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 50000 ft. and Flight level code (mode C) ICAO coding system 100-foot steps from - ATC 4401-1-175 -1000 to 31000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 -1000 to 62700 ft. Does anyone know what exactly this means? Is the 175W unit not really usable in sailplanes that plan to fly in the USA in areas where one would go above 15K? -Tom Tom, The 175 replies with 175 watts & the 225 replies with 225 watts. I'm thinking the 175 is made for little bug smashers like we fly & the 225 is something you'd put into your C-210 or Piper Malibu and such. The 175 I've got seems to make the big brown turd looking Southwest jets kinda steer around my little glider even at 12-14k. I can make my 2 sets of batteries last about 6-7 hrs and still see 11.5 v in each set (8ah each set). I see the reply light going even on the Whites. It will even work up to 50,000' but it's only going to reply with 175 w. The closer you are to the antenna the better they will paint you. The more wattage you reply with the better and further they can paint you. I'd think that TCAS would pick either one up easily at 5-10 miles. As far as the steps go your encoder replies with pressure altitude in 100' incriments reliably up to the certified alt's (and probably beond but not certified). Russ |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
Paul Remde wrote:
Hi, I'm not so sure that the 175 model can (or at least should) be used above 15,000 feet. If I owned one I probably wouldn't turn it off above 15,000 feet, but the data below seems to indicate that it will not work above 31,000 feet. My guess is that they created 2 versions so that glider pilots that never (or rarely) fly above 15,000 feet would not need to extra power drain of the 250 W version. I'm very curious about this, also, but I doubt the glider market is big enough to affect a decision to make another version! I'm guessing it's designed for VFR pilots that will be staying low because of aircraft performance or are without an oxygen system, a much bigger market than gliders. Glider pilots that fly over 15,000 feet often should (in my opinion) use the 250 W version - because it was designed for, tested, and certified for use at those altitudes. If the 175 W version would have worked OK at high altitudes, they wouldn't have needed the 250W version. The 175 W version will operate at 30,000' just fine. It's not a technical issue, but, I suspect, an ATC issue: they want to see the high speed IFR traffic in Class A airspace from a long distance away. Remember that the amplitude of the signal drops off with the cube of the distance. Actually, with the (inverse) square of the distance. Think of the area of expanding sphere as it's radius increases. The range of the 175W model would be much less than the 250 W version. The range difference would be about the square root of (175/250), or 84% of the 250 watt unit. It's this range insensitivity to output power that is the key to the PCAS units (like the Zaon MRX unit) ability to indicate how far away the other aircraft is. The good news is that the 250W version is only $200 more than 175W version. The brochure shows that the power consumption for the 250W version is a bit more. Typical Consumption at 5544 (1200/sec) - (I don't know what the "5544 (1200/sec)" means) The 1200/sec is the number of interrogations per second; the 5544 might be the code set in the transponder, as the code affects the power consumption. 0.50 A at 13.75 V (250 W) 0.40 A at 13.75 V (175 W) -- Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006 Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
"The range of the 175W model would be much less than the 250 W version."
Not true. The difference in output is 2 db. The only time there will be a substantial difference is when you are at the threshold of the 175 watt signal. The difference between high power and low power would be more significant at lower altitudes, when you are shadowed from the radar. At high altitudes, you are more likely to have a clear shot to the radar. I think there is a balance between power and battery life. I do not know the significance of the difference in altitude specification between the two units. The manual clearly states that the maximum altitude for the 175 watt unit is 15,000 feet. It would be necessary to understand the reason for this statement before it is prudent to ignore it. It may be regulatory, rather than technical. Colin |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
COLIN LAMB wrote:
"The range of the 175W model would be much less than the 250 W version." Not true. The difference in output is 2 db. The only time there will be a substantial difference is when you are at the threshold of the 175 watt signal. The difference between high power and low power would be more significant at lower altitudes, when you are shadowed from the radar. At high altitudes, you are more likely to have a clear shot to the radar. I think there is a balance between power and battery life. I do not know the significance of the difference in altitude specification between the two units. The manual clearly states that the maximum altitude for the 175 watt unit is 15,000 feet. It would be necessary to understand the reason for this statement before it is prudent to ignore it. It may be regulatory, rather than technical. Colin It is possible that the 175 watt unit is only certified to 15,000', and it would be illegal to use it above that altitude. |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
It is possible that the 175 watt unit is only certified to 15,000', and it would be illegal to use it above that altitude. That is my guess. Paul Remde |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
COLIN LAMB wrote:
I do not know the significance of the difference in altitude specification between the two units. The manual clearly states that the maximum altitude for the 175 watt unit is 15,000 feet. What's confusing is the manual (dated Aug 15, 2001) for my 175 watt Becker unit states it's good to 35,000 feet. Specifically: "Operating altitude 35000 ft. in accordance with EUROCAE/RTCA ED-14D/DO-160D Cat. C1" This is a unit purchased in Aug 2001. The manual just downloaded from the Becker-USA site (dated Jan 15, 2002) shows the 15,000' altitude. Time to call Becker, I think. -- Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006 Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
If you read what Becker has listed, they "recommend" the higher powered
transponder at altitudes above 15K....... they "recommend" only, there is no specific rule or regulation the "required" the higher power unit above this altitude. There have been no issue anywhere that I have encountered that specifically states or stated that the 175W transponder was illegal or inoperable at higher altitudes...aside from a small cost difference the 250 W version does require more operating power....and has been very unpopular for nearly all applications tim Wings & Wheels www.wingsandwheels.com wrote in message ups.com... 5Z wrote: The operating manual for the Becker ATC 4401-1-xxx transponder has the following specifications: (http://www.beckerusa.com/products/de...4401-1-I+O.pdf) Max. operating altitude : - ATC 4401-1-175 15000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 50000 ft. and Flight level code (mode C) ICAO coding system 100-foot steps from - ATC 4401-1-175 -1000 to 31000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 -1000 to 62700 ft. Does anyone know what exactly this means? Is the 175W unit not really usable in sailplanes that plan to fly in the USA in areas where one would go above 15K? -Tom Tom, The 175 replies with 175 watts & the 225 replies with 225 watts. I'm thinking the 175 is made for little bug smashers like we fly & the 225 is something you'd put into your C-210 or Piper Malibu and such. The 175 I've got seems to make the big brown turd looking Southwest jets kinda steer around my little glider even at 12-14k. I can make my 2 sets of batteries last about 6-7 hrs and still see 11.5 v in each set (8ah each set). I see the reply light going even on the Whites. It will even work up to 50,000' but it's only going to reply with 175 w. The closer you are to the antenna the better they will paint you. The more wattage you reply with the better and further they can paint you. I'd think that TCAS would pick either one up easily at 5-10 miles. As far as the steps go your encoder replies with pressure altitude in 100' incriments reliably up to the certified alt's (and probably beond but not certified). Russ |
#10
|
|||
|
|||
Becker transponder max operating altitude
Hi Tim,
That is very good information! Where did you read it? Thanks, Paul Remde "Tim Mara" wrote in message ... If you read what Becker has listed, they "recommend" the higher powered transponder at altitudes above 15K....... they "recommend" only, there is no specific rule or regulation the "required" the higher power unit above this altitude. There have been no issue anywhere that I have encountered that specifically states or stated that the 175W transponder was illegal or inoperable at higher altitudes...aside from a small cost difference the 250 W version does require more operating power....and has been very unpopular for nearly all applications tim Wings & Wheels www.wingsandwheels.com wrote in message ups.com... 5Z wrote: The operating manual for the Becker ATC 4401-1-xxx transponder has the following specifications: (http://www.beckerusa.com/products/de...4401-1-I+O.pdf) Max. operating altitude : - ATC 4401-1-175 15000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 50000 ft. and Flight level code (mode C) ICAO coding system 100-foot steps from - ATC 4401-1-175 -1000 to 31000 ft. - ATC 4401-1-250 -1000 to 62700 ft. Does anyone know what exactly this means? Is the 175W unit not really usable in sailplanes that plan to fly in the USA in areas where one would go above 15K? -Tom Tom, The 175 replies with 175 watts & the 225 replies with 225 watts. I'm thinking the 175 is made for little bug smashers like we fly & the 225 is something you'd put into your C-210 or Piper Malibu and such. The 175 I've got seems to make the big brown turd looking Southwest jets kinda steer around my little glider even at 12-14k. I can make my 2 sets of batteries last about 6-7 hrs and still see 11.5 v in each set (8ah each set). I see the reply light going even on the Whites. It will even work up to 50,000' but it's only going to reply with 175 w. The closer you are to the antenna the better they will paint you. The more wattage you reply with the better and further they can paint you. I'd think that TCAS would pick either one up easily at 5-10 miles. As far as the steps go your encoder replies with pressure altitude in 100' incriments reliably up to the certified alt's (and probably beond but not certified). Russ |
|
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
AOPA Stall/Spin Study -- Stowell's Review (8,000 words) | Rich Stowell | Aerobatics | 28 | January 2nd 09 02:26 PM |
MVAs in AZ | Dan | Instrument Flight Rules | 36 | September 16th 06 02:19 AM |
Report Leaving Assigned Altitude? | John Clonts | Instrument Flight Rules | 81 | March 20th 04 02:34 PM |
Transponder test after static system opened? | Jack I | Owning | 6 | March 14th 04 03:09 PM |
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools | RT | Military Aviation | 104 | September 25th 03 03:17 PM |