IDAHO FATALITY

At 21:47 22 August 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 8/22/2011 9:12 AM, Mike wrote:
On Aug 21, 10:27 pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:47 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

A little rudder
to help the turn along, a little back stick because we're not as high
as we thought, and in the glider goes.

I can't help but wonder how many fewer people would ever have the idea
to try the above if it hadn't been suggested to them by their
instructor's patter during training.

I'm with JJ on this topic. I find it incredible that just about every
glider with retractable gear has a gear warning alarm to keep from
damaging the gelcoat or a couple of layers of carbon on the belly, but
we don't have an "Open Spoiler" alarm to prevent someone from dying on
tow..

I think a "open spoiler on tow" is a great idea, and I've had one for
several years, as do some other people. If you have a Cambridge 302
vario, it's easy to add one, especially if it's already used for your
gear warning.

Operation is simple: if your spoilers are still unlocked as the airspeed
increases past ~25 knots, you get an audible warning. It works for towed
gliders and motorgliders, using the same gear and spoiler switches used
for the gear warning - no changes in wiring needed.

Perhaps even better than a warning device is one that prevents them from
opening in the first place. DG gliders can do a retrofit of the "Piggot
hook" that prevents the spoilers from opening if they are left unlocked.
Get the info from DG. Many gliders (at least experimental licensed ones)
can be easily fitted with a similar device.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz



A bungee cord can be fastened to the air brake handle with the other end
fastened to a forward location. This will keep the air brakes closed even
though they are not locked. I have used this system on several gliders.

At 21:47 22 August 2011, Eric Greenwell wrote:
On 8/22/2011 9:12 AM, Mike wrote:
On Aug 21, 10:27 pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Aug 22, 8:47 am, John Cochrane
wrote:

A little rudder
to help the turn along, a little back stick because we're not as high
as we thought, and in the glider goes.

I can't help but wonder how many fewer people would ever have the idea
to try the above if it hadn't been suggested to them by their
instructor's patter during training.

I'm with JJ on this topic. I find it incredible that just about every
glider with retractable gear has a gear warning alarm to keep from
damaging the gelcoat or a couple of layers of carbon on the belly, but
we don't have an "Open Spoiler" alarm to prevent someone from dying on
tow..

I think a "open spoiler on tow" is a great idea, and I've had one for
several years, as do some other people. If you have a Cambridge 302
vario, it's easy to add one, especially if it's already used for your
gear warning.

Operation is simple: if your spoilers are still unlocked as the airspeed
increases past ~25 knots, you get an audible warning. It works for towed
gliders and motorgliders, using the same gear and spoiler switches used
for the gear warning - no changes in wiring needed.

Perhaps even better than a warning device is one that prevents them from
opening in the first place. DG gliders can do a retrofit of the "Piggot
hook" that prevents the spoilers from opening if they are left unlocked.
Get the info from DG. Many gliders (at least experimental licensed ones)
can be easily fitted with a similar device.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)

- "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation Mar/2004" Much of what
you need to know tinyurl.com/yfs7tnz


A bungee cord can be attached to the air brake handle with the other end
fastened to a forward location. This will keep the air brakes closed even
though they are not locked. I have used this system on several gliders.

Don, 70

On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:36:36 +0000, Walt Connelly
wrote:


Where I fly there are a couple of guys who frequently do low passes and
thankfully thus far without incident. They are high time pilots flying
high performance glass and I must admit that I enjoy and admire what
they do. I also have some nice videos of their exploits. My major
concern is for a situation where someone else might be in the pattern
and suddenly confronted by another glider joining then in close
proximity, hopefully not TOO close.


Hi Walt,

I'd suggest to widen your concerns to those high-time pilots, too.
However controlled a low pass might look like, one doesn't have it
completely under control.

Among a couple of really impressive things done by top pilots at low
altitudes (which amazingly all ended without an accident), I once had
the doubtful pleasure to see a current German champion do a perfectly
controlled, beautiful low pass on his (and my) home airfield... a
thing that he's done dozens of times before.

Unfortunately this time he managed to overlook a complete 35ft-high
club house (that's been standing there since 1960) and its surrounding
50ft tall trees, missing it by a couple (much less than ten) of feet.
He simply didn't think that he was THAT close........................
Amazing example of tunnel vision.



Best regards from Germany
Andreas

On 8/22/2011 5:57 PM, Andreas Maurer wrote:
On Mon, 22 Aug 2011 08:36:36 +0000, Walt Connelly
wrote:


Where I fly there are a couple of guys who frequently do low passes and
thankfully thus far without incident. They are high time pilots flying
high performance glass and I must admit that I enjoy and admire what
they do. I also have some nice videos of their exploits. My major
concern is for a situation where someone else might be in the pattern
and suddenly confronted by another glider joining then in close
proximity, hopefully not TOO close.


Hi Walt,

I'd suggest to widen your concerns to those high-time pilots, too.
However controlled a low pass might look like, one doesn't have it
completely under control.

Among a couple of really impressive things done by top pilots at low
altitudes (which amazingly all ended without an accident), I once had
the doubtful pleasure to see a current German champion do a perfectly
controlled, beautiful low pass on his (and my) home airfield... a
thing that he's done dozens of times before.

Unfortunately this time he managed to overlook a complete 35ft-high
club house (that's been standing there since 1960) and its surrounding
50ft tall trees, missing it by a couple (much less than ten) of feet.
He simply didn't think that he was THAT close........................
Amazing example of tunnel vision.



Best regards from Germany
Andreas

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to ever
do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to intentionally take a
completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only once.
While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I personally had
zero justification for doing one (though I used the 'future contest practice'
rationalization). I quit after the 'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself
(yet again) the question posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it
was a grownup form of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers
exhibit the highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale. What
others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.

On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?


Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?



While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.

On Aug 22, 5:33*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?





While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

On Aug 22, 8:49*pm, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:33*pm, Greg Arnold wrote:





On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale..
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been *a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Expereinced? well maybe......Clueless? Yep clueless!

Taking off with spoiler open...clueless
Spinning in the pattern....clueless
Running out of fuel...clueless
Should I go on?



Cookie

On 8/22/2011 7:49 PM, Ramy wrote:
On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?





While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale.
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean that you are not
clueless. Just look at AF447 for an example.

--
Mike Schumann

On Aug 22, 10:09*pm, Mike Schumann
wrote:
On 8/22/2011 7:49 PM, Ramy wrote:









On Aug 22, 5:33 pm, Greg *wrote:
On 8/22/2011 5:18 PM, BobW wrote:

Here's a non-rhetorical question for everyone to ponder.

Since there remains in the soaring world exactly zero functional need to
ever do a low-altitude high speed pass, and, to do so is to
intentionally take a completely avoidable risk, why ever do one?

Of course, there also is zero functional need to fly sailplanes -- those
who do it "take a completely avoidable risk." *So, in the interests of
safely, should we terminate that activity?

I think pilots do low passes for the same reason they fly sailplanes --
it is fun. *It all is a weighing process -- does the fun outweigh the risks?

While you're pondering, back in the early 1980's I went through my
low-altitude, pattern zoomie phase, 100% safely, and got 'startled' only
once. While in that phase, I was actively/uncomfortably aware that I
personally had zero justification for doing one (though I used the
'future contest practice' rationalization). I quit after the
'startlement-included' zoomie, asked myself (yet again) the question
posed at the start of this comment, and concluded it was a grownup form
of 'teenager-istic' showing off. We all know teenagers exhibit the
highest forms of good human judgment, right?

I've shared my (stupid, unjustifiable, indefensible) zoomie rationale..
What others might my fellow glider pilots have used or continue to use?

Curiously,
Bob W.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I was going to say the same thing about aerobatics as well. Why do
loops and rolls and spins? Because it is fun! Contests are not the
only reason people do low passes. Just make sure you know what you are
doing and ask yourself if it worth the risk. Perhaps this discussion
will remind some people what the are the risks and next time when they
will consider a low pass they may decide that the fun does not
outweight the risk. This works for me.
Although this discussion is now focused on high speed low pass, it is
not clear that this is what indeed happened in Idaho. As someone else
pointed out it may have been *a case of missjudged pattern altitude.
But what I found most disturbing in all the recent fatalities
including this one is that almost all involved where either CFIGs,
examiners, ATP, commerical pilots etc. Very experienced pilots and not
some clueless who did not know what he was doing.

Ramy

Just because you have lots of experience doesn't mean that you are not
clueless. *Just look at AF447 for an example.

--
Mike Schumann

I think it was Stan Hall who commented years ago " a pilot who flys
with his glands rather than his brain does the sport no favors"

On Aug 23, 12:10*am, Cookie wrote:
On Aug 21, 10:27*pm, Bruce Hoult wrote:

On Aug 22, 8:47*am, John Cochrane
wrote:

A little rudder
to help the turn along, a little back stick because we're not as high
as we thought, and in the glider goes.

I can't help but wonder how many fewer people would ever have the idea
to try the above if it hadn't been suggested to them by their
instructor's patter during training.

What!!! *Are you ou are suggesting that there are instructors out
there who advocate raising the nose and over ruddering in the
pattern! * ?

"suggesting" is literally "putting the thought into your mind"

It is not the same as advocating.

Someone can be saying "don't do this" while you're thinking "wtf? I'd
have never thought of trying to 'help' a turn with rudder!"

And there it is. The thought is now in your mind, ready to recall
goodness knows when under stress, when that thought would never
otherwise have entered your head.