Low cost ADS-B Options

On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:22:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

I appreciate the thread, and I'm trying to sort this out a little better. So, according to the Trig marketing info, 'the TN72 GPS receiver is a fully certified product (FAA TSO-C199) designed for voluntary equipage and use in areas outside of designated or mandated ADS-B airspace.' So when coupled to a Trig T22 transponder, it will transmit ADS-B out info to contribute to your being seen by others. Sounds good, but as of right now, as the TN72 is not a TSO-C145C GPS receiver, it may not qualify as an FAA certified ADS-B OUT device, and therefore may disqualify one from obtaining traffic services (TIS-B) and weather services (FIS-B) over your separate, even pricier, ADS-B IN setup?

Charlie Gillespie

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:47:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:22:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

I appreciate the thread, and I'm trying to sort this out a little better. So, according to the Trig marketing info, 'the TN72 GPS receiver is a fully certified product (FAA TSO-C199) designed for voluntary equipage and use in areas outside of designated or mandated ADS-B airspace.' So when coupled to a Trig T22 transponder, it will transmit ADS-B out info to contribute to your being seen by others. Sounds good, but as of right now, as the TN72 is not a TSO-C145C GPS receiver, it may not qualify as an FAA certified ADS-B OUT device, and therefore may disqualify one from obtaining traffic services (TIS-B) and weather services (FIS-B) over your separate, even pricier, ADS-B IN setup?

Charlie Gillespie

Charlie, I suggest you read earlier posts by Darryl. Please do a search on this topic and read his posts. Your post suggests you would benefit from it and I am writing this as an encouragement not criticism. This is a complex problem and I can tell you from experience that even a fully certified system may not work in a glider, especially certified antennas. They are very old designs and they are not designed to provide proper signal when aircraft is constantly maneuvering (thermalling) with 45 deg bank angle.

On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 5:50:48 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:47:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:22:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source.. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

I appreciate the thread, and I'm trying to sort this out a little better. So, according to the Trig marketing info, 'the TN72 GPS receiver is a fully certified product (FAA TSO-C199) designed for voluntary equipage and use in areas outside of designated or mandated ADS-B airspace.' So when coupled to a Trig T22 transponder, it will transmit ADS-B out info to contribute to your being seen by others. Sounds good, but as of right now, as the TN72 is not a TSO-C145C GPS receiver, it may not qualify as an FAA certified ADS-B OUT device, and therefore may disqualify one from obtaining traffic services (TIS-B) and weather services (FIS-B) over your separate, even pricier, ADS-B IN setup?

Charlie Gillespie

Charlie, I suggest you read earlier posts by Darryl. Please do a search on this topic and read his posts. Your post suggests you would benefit from it and I am writing this as an encouragement not criticism. This is a complex problem and I can tell you from experience that even a fully certified system may not work in a glider, especially certified antennas. They are very old designs and they are not designed to provide proper signal when aircraft is constantly maneuvering (thermalling) with 45 deg bank angle.

Good point, Andrzej. The FAA has an online Public ADS-B Performance Report (PAPR) query for operators to find out how their equipment performs at a specified time/date (https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx). I'd be curious to hear feedback from general aviation pilots, and perhaps some Stemme drivers with ADS-B, as to how their gear is functioning.

CG

On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source.. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:02:26 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 5:50:48 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:47:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:22:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600.

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

I appreciate the thread, and I'm trying to sort this out a little better. So, according to the Trig marketing info, 'the TN72 GPS receiver is a fully certified product (FAA TSO-C199) designed for voluntary equipage and use in areas outside of designated or mandated ADS-B airspace.' So when coupled to a Trig T22 transponder, it will transmit ADS-B out info to contribute to your being seen by others. Sounds good, but as of right now, as the TN72 is not a TSO-C145C GPS receiver, it may not qualify as an FAA certified ADS-B OUT device, and therefore may disqualify one from obtaining traffic services (TIS-B) and weather services (FIS-B) over your separate, even pricier, ADS-B IN setup?

Charlie Gillespie

Charlie, I suggest you read earlier posts by Darryl. Please do a search on this topic and read his posts. Your post suggests you would benefit from it and I am writing this as an encouragement not criticism. This is a complex problem and I can tell you from experience that even a fully certified system may not work in a glider, especially certified antennas. They are very old designs and they are not designed to provide proper signal when aircraft is constantly maneuvering (thermalling) with 45 deg bank angle.

Good point, Andrzej. The FAA has an online Public ADS-B Performance Report (PAPR) query for operators to find out how their equipment performs at a specified time/date (https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx). I'd be curious to hear feedback from general aviation pilots, and perhaps some Stemme drivers with ADS-B, as to how their gear is functioning.

CG

I have a Phoenix Motorglider with a Dynon Skyview system with 2020 compliant ADS-B OUT. This system uses an OEM version of the Trig TT-22 transponder and a GPS source that is rumored to be the same pedigree as the new TN-72 Trig GPS source.

I have run the FAA performance report for numerous flights and the system is working flawlessly. The only hiccup is that most of the performance reports, but not all, indicate that the Emitter Type is "Parachutist / Skydiver", not "Glider", which is how the Dynon is configured.

It is not clear if this is a Dynon or FAA problem. There are a number of Phoenix owners who have identified this problem and we are currently working with Dynon and the FAA to get this fixed.

I suspect that the Phoenix Motorglider community constitutes the vast majority of gliders that are currently flying with ADS-B OUT equipment. If anyone else out there has a glider with ADS-B OUT currently installed, we would be very interested in seeing your FAA Performance report, which would help us understand if this is a Dynon or FAA issue.

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 10:10:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Hi Renny

Great question. Here is a long-winded way of saying I don't know the answer :-) But maybe it recaps some useful stuff.

I don't see how it could be "illegal" there is no law or regulation I'm aware of saying you can't do this in an experimental aircraft. What exact ground services you would receive, wether its a good idea or would upset folks, etc. I don't know.

For completeness let me just mention the relevant 1090ES part of the ADS-B carriage regulations here.

14 CFR 91.225 requires 1090ES Out TSO-C166b Class A1, A1S, A2, A3, B1S, or B1 devices, or "meets performance of" for experimental aircraft. And yes the "Class" spec includes power output but also other stuff, For example Class A devices are ADS-B Out and In (think transport category aircraft), Class B devices are ADS-B Out only.

The Trig TT-22 is TSO-C166b Class B1S device
The Trig TT-21 is TSO-C166b Class B0 device -- so does not meet the requirement.

Requiring higher-power 1090ES Out devices allowed the FAA to save money by requiring fewer ADS-B ground stations. My understanding was Trig was surprised by this FAA requirement that came into effect after they were already selling the TT-21 in the USA.

And none of this changes any usefulness of the TT-21 as a plain transponder before or after 2020. If you are flying with a Trig TT-21 transponder in a glider today, you already have a fantastic device for providing traffic information about your glider to ATC SSR and TCAS and PCAS systems and via TIS-B to suitably equipped aircraft. Obviously some of those things only work when within appropriate service coverage... but TCAS is great technology or last resort in part because it works *everywhere*. And none of that goes away in 2020.... but some ATC SSR is expected to be decommissioned in the longer term.

----

So you can today use a TT-22 but not a TT-21 to meet the FAA 2020 ADS-B Out carriage requirements, but as you point out gliders are currently exempt from most of those requirements.

For an experimental aircraft, you can in principle connect up any GPS source to an ADS-B out system as long as you correctly configure the GPS source to reflect it's quality parameters like SIL. Transmitting lies about the GPS data or it's quality is just stupid and is really going to **** off the FAA and may earn you a visit from some feds. Lets see if anything is left of NavWorx after the FAA finishes chewing on them for their apparent decision to transmitting false GPS SIL etc. data. This is where you absolutely should not be guessing or messing around. Make sure you work with manufacturers instructions for doing that, and if in doubt check with them (start with the transponder manufacture).

I can't recall that the ADS-B device class being transmitted in any ADS-B extended squitter messages. There may be some ways to reverse engineer this is you are also interrogating the underlying mode S transponder. I'd have to dig though too much stuff now to check. I have no idea if the FAA ADS-B ground infrastructure would transmit TIS-B or ADS-R for client aircraft if it knew that a 1090ES device was "under-spec" at Class B0. I suspect they might not care/look at that, they certainly do care/look at the GPS source spec data (like SIL) and that is clearly transmitted. This would be interesting to ask FAA folks about...

And just playing with this is certainly not what I'd do. I'd be talking to Trig and local FSDO folks to make sure they are all OK with this any "experimenting". A TT-21 with a TN71 is really an early version of a TABS device, so asking the right questions might help find Trig and FAA folks interested in working with anybody who wanted to play with this.

It's certainly my hope that *if* gliders lose their ADS-B Out exemption that TABS regulations are introduced that would hopefully help provide a lower-cost/easier to install etc. method of compliance. Of course I'd also like to see TABS regulations introduced even if the ADS-B Out exemption was not removed.

The folks at Trig have been very helpful every contact I've had with them, and they are a great place to start asking with these questions if you own a TT-21 today.


Darryl


On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:54:13 PM UTC-8, Renny wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 4:41:22 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, December 1, 2016 at 5:11:44 PM UTC-8, glidergreg wrote:
On Saturday, July 30, 2016 at 12:22:22 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600..

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

You may me correct on this, the TN72 looks like it will require an antenna and a brief search of TSO-C190 antenna much like the one used on the TN70 are upwards of $300.00 and more. Ironically I don't think the TN72 is TSOed but the antenna may well need to be.

The TN72 at it exists today cannot be installed in any certified aircraft including certified gliders. Since it's an experimental market focused product I'm not sure why you are talking about TSO antennas. Having an actual TSO GPS antenna is not a requirement there.

A TN72 can be installed as an ADS-B Out GPS source in an experimental glider, and since it's a "meets performance of TSO-C145c" device it absolutely will trigger TIS-B and ADS-R ground services. But few glider will likely be equipped to receive that data (a PowerFLARM receives 1090ES direct only, it does not receive ADS-R, TIS-B or FIS-B). Trig are good guys they damn well would not sell a product in the experimental market that did not do that correctly (Uh unlike some other folks).

That the TN72 is TSO-C199 certified is irrelevant to any use today since there are no TSO-C199 related use or installation regulations.

What will happen moving forward is intersting. And may change here as TSO-C199 related regulations appear and if (unrelated) ADS-B installation STCs are developed by folks.

For people with a Trig TT-22 in an experimental glider who want to play with ADS-B out the TN72 is good news. It would be great to hear about them being installed and used.

As Andez says all this has been well discussed before, including in posts earlier n this very thread.

Darryl - I much appreciate all of the info you provide on this issue. Quick question....In a glider with an experimental airworthiness certificate, it seems one can now install a Trig TN72, but would it actually be "illegal" (if that is the proper term) to link it up to a Trig TT-21? I know that the TT-22 is a Class I transponder and it has the 250 watt power requirement and meets the ADS-B transponder requirements, but in an experimental glider is there any way the TT-21 could still legally be used (especially since gliders are actually exempt from the ADS-B requirement in 2020)?

Thanks for your excellent help - Renny

Darryl - Thanks for all of the detailed information. I will contact Trig on this, but I am also hopeful that, as we get closer to 2020, we will get more clarification from the various manufacturers and also from the FAA.

Thanks again for your great help and guidance!
Renny

On Sunday, December 4, 2016 at 8:52:50 AM UTC-5, Mike Schumann wrote:
On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:02:26 AM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 5:50:48 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Friday, December 2, 2016 at 4:47:13 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Friday, July 29, 2016 at 11:22:22 PM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:
I spent a day at Oshkosh last Monday and had a chance to talk to Trig about their ADS-B plans.

The Trig TT22 Mode S Transponder is currently shipping and supports 1090ES ADS-B Out, if it is connected to an approved WAAS GPS position source. Up to now, approved GPS sources have been quite expensive.

The good news is that around Christmas, Trig is going to start shipping their new, as yet unannounced, TN72 GPS position source. I had a chance to see a prototype. It easily fits in the palm of your hand, weighs about 100 grams, and uses minimal power. While Trig wouldn't commit to a price, the people I talked to said that the unit would sell for less than $600..

Couple this with an ADS-B receiver ($500 - $850), an iPhone, iPad, or Android device, and a low cost app like Foreflight, etc., and you will have a full blown collision avoidance system that will accurately display and warn you about all other ADS-B and/or Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity. In addition you will be visible to all TCAS equipped commercial aircraft.

Trig indicated that their distributors have significant discounts available of groups and clubs that organize a volume purchase.

This is a great solution for glider pilots who fly near metropolitan airports and are mainly concerned about collision threats with other GA or commercial aircraft.

Get your checkbooks ready.

I appreciate the thread, and I'm trying to sort this out a little better. So, according to the Trig marketing info, 'the TN72 GPS receiver is a fully certified product (FAA TSO-C199) designed for voluntary equipage and use in areas outside of designated or mandated ADS-B airspace.' So when coupled to a Trig T22 transponder, it will transmit ADS-B out info to contribute to your being seen by others. Sounds good, but as of right now, as the TN72 is not a TSO-C145C GPS receiver, it may not qualify as an FAA certified ADS-B OUT device, and therefore may disqualify one from obtaining traffic services (TIS-B) and weather services (FIS-B) over your separate, even pricier, ADS-B IN setup?

Charlie Gillespie

Charlie, I suggest you read earlier posts by Darryl. Please do a search on this topic and read his posts. Your post suggests you would benefit from it and I am writing this as an encouragement not criticism. This is a complex problem and I can tell you from experience that even a fully certified system may not work in a glider, especially certified antennas. They are very old designs and they are not designed to provide proper signal when aircraft is constantly maneuvering (thermalling) with 45 deg bank angle.

Good point, Andrzej. The FAA has an online Public ADS-B Performance Report (PAPR) query for operators to find out how their equipment performs at a specified time/date (https://adsbperformance.faa.gov/PAPRRequest.aspx). I'd be curious to hear feedback from general aviation pilots, and perhaps some Stemme drivers with ADS-B, as to how their gear is functioning.

CG

I have a Phoenix Motorglider with a Dynon Skyview system with 2020 compliant ADS-B OUT. This system uses an OEM version of the Trig TT-22 transponder and a GPS source that is rumored to be the same pedigree as the new TN-72 Trig GPS source.

I have run the FAA performance report for numerous flights and the system is working flawlessly. The only hiccup is that most of the performance reports, but not all, indicate that the Emitter Type is "Parachutist / Skydiver", not "Glider", which is how the Dynon is configured.

It is not clear if this is a Dynon or FAA problem. There are a number of Phoenix owners who have identified this problem and we are currently working with Dynon and the FAA to get this fixed.

I suspect that the Phoenix Motorglider community constitutes the vast majority of gliders that are currently flying with ADS-B OUT equipment. If anyone else out there has a glider with ADS-B OUT currently installed, we would be very interested in seeing your FAA Performance report, which would help us understand if this is a Dynon or FAA issue.

Same issue with Trig.