Notable Power Flarm saves - Is it 'worth it'?

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 7:42:20 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 11:39:37 PM UTC-4, Darryl Ramm wrote:
^ BTW PowerFLARM (with the ADS-B option) also includes a PCAS capability

Darryl, can you explain that further, for those of us who are dazed and stupefied when confronted with the FAA's alphabet soup? AFAIK, PF does not transmit anything that the ATC system receives, so how can it give you collision warnings for non-FLARM aircraft, other than the warning about the presence of a transmitting transponder nearby?

That's all PowerFLARM does for transponder threats: PCAS. PowerFLARM does not transmit anything seen by ATC or non-FLARM/PowerFLARM equipped aircraft.

Almost all PowerFLARM in the USA have the "ADS-B" option which also includes PCAS capability. PCAS systems listens for transponders replying to other interrogators (SSR, TCAS, TCAD). It sees the altitude reported in those Mode C or S replies and guesses the distance from the received power. So accurate altitude, approximate distance and no directional information.

Also, you say a cheap used mode C transponder is a good addition to a glider. Can you explain further what that will get you? E.g.,
will ATC still see you after 2020?

Yes. There is nothing happening in 2020 that affects this, including the ADS-B Out carriage mandate becoming effective.

Will PowerFLARM devices sense your mode C transponder transmissions?

Yes. As long as your Transponder is being interrogated by SSR (aka ATC radar), TCAS or TCAD (lower-cost TCAS like systems). But only PowerFLARM with the ADS-B option, which almost all in the USA have, ...*don't* buy PowerFLARM "Pure" in the USA. There are settings in the PowerFLARM that can disable PCAS or adjust the filtering of PCAS targets.

Will the collision-avoidance equipment on airliners detect you, now and in the future?

Yes. That's one of the big reasons for getting a transponder, Mode C or Mode S. In fact TCAS requires a transponder in the threat aircraft, if your aircraft happens to have UAT Out and no transponder... TCAS II will let an airliner fly right into your glider with no collision RA (which is the main reasons that UAT Out in gliders was always a bad idea).

There is no plan to end of life Mode C in the USA, there was some talk from the FAA on long term reducing the number of approach radar systems (which would impact Mode S transponder without ADS-B Out equally). None of that seems to be even planned yet. There already issues with ADS-B Out equipage being behind schedule, and removing some approach radar systems has other issues, including possible national security ones.

One downside of Mode C transponders near other gliders is that the Mode C transponder replies unlike Mode S replies do not contain an ICAO number and its harder for the PowerFLARM to guess say that a PowerFLARM and Mode C equipped glider are the same target. But this is also going to happen at times when Mode S transponders get interrogated by a old Mode C interrogator, like most of the TCAD systems flying around... then the Mode S transponder has to emulate a Mode C transponder.

My message for a long time has been: If you fly near areas of dense airliners, fast jets and military traffic, just get a transponder, Mode S or used Mode C does not matter... get what you can afford.

Mode S, at least with a Trig transponder, has the additional benefit of being able to do ADS-B Out. Not all Mode S transponders can do ADS-B out or TABS. The Trig TT22 is currently *the* Mode S transponder to purchase for ADS-B Out in gliders in that USA.

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 10:15:06 AM UTC-7, George Haeh wrote:
Air Avionics has recently announced an "Air Traffic" box that combines
Flarm
with GPS suitable for ADS-B Out, at least in EASA land.

https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=253

It's just a new generation of basically what was PowerFLARM. Saying it can do ADS-B Out in EASA land is kinda meaningless, you can connect up any old NMEA GPS there in a glider. And you can do that here in the USA... which will get you visibility to PowerFLARM units and portable ADS-B In receivers but that is all.

And it's apparently not FCC approved. So not legal to sell in the USA.

Air-avionics also markets their VT-01 transponder as having ADS-B out capability, but it does’t! Be careful purchasing air-avionics anti-collision equipment, at least for US market..

On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 8:39:37 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, May 2, 2018 at 6:23:29 PM UTC-7, Tom BravoMike wrote:
At the most basic level FLARM is transmitting GPS data and looking at other FLARM units GPS data.... the antennas are not directional etc. It's all about software and focus on the glider community and making the traffic warnings usable/reducing false positives and providing the NMEA based data integration with glider traffic displays and glider flight computers... nothing those other systems can do. (...)

Thank you for taking your time to clarify it to me. You are right, I have not flown in a FLARM equipped glider yet. But I find this your statement very important and revealing to me: "It's all about software and focus on the glider community". So the questions that bothers me all the time is: with the ADS-B becoming so common and mandatory for most aircraft, why should I have two transmitting systems on board (FLARM and a transponder - think about price and power usage). If it's all about software, why can't we have software using the ADS-B transmission (more universal, stronger ergo better visible) to provide us, glider pilots, with the information (visual/acoustic) equal to that produced by FLARM.

Let me make it clear: I am for the safety, visibility, awareness etc. I have a Microair Mode C Transponder and the ATD-300 Traffic Watch working beautifully, and I know it's not enough. I'm not against the idea behind FLARM and I bow down before the guys who invented and implemented it - but now it's the NextGen and ADS-B era - let's adapt to it! If a FLARM device appears on the market with the added ADS-B-Out feature, I'll be among the first to order, ready to invest in it whatever is necessary and justified.

Thanks for equipping with a transponder... that's actually a huge help near airliners, fast jets, military traffic etc. and while within SSR coverage it makes your aircraft visible via TIS-B to properly equipped aircraft (that confusingly need to have ADS-B In *and* Out...remember by complexity comment about ADS-B earlier).

PowerFLARM (with the ADS-B In option, which almost all the units in the USA have) *does* receive ADS-B 1090ES and provide much of the same capabilities as a PowerFLARM-PowerFLARM system. Unfortunately it only receivers 1090ES and not UAT, and not ADS-R or TIS-B services, even if your glider has ADS-B Out to make it a ADS-R or TIS-B Client.... unfortunate European legacy there for where the ADS-B technology in PowerFLARM came from-hopefully FLARM will address in future. But even if all that worked... you can't properly receive ADS-R or TIS-B services unless you have a TABS or 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out system. (See comment earlier about complexity...)

For 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out in a certified glider today you are looking at: Trig TT22 (~$1,900) and TN70 (~$1,900) plus install costs.

For 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out in an experimental glider today you are looking at: Trig TT22 (~$1,900) and TN72 (~$350)

You can also use the TT22 and TN72 and do TABS in the type certified glider, that gets you visibility to other ADS-B in traffic and TIS-B and ADS-R client status, but not visibility to over ADS-B out to ATC and no post-January 1 2020 ADS-B Out airspace privileges. And that's ADS-B out only... can be a great thing for visibility to say GA traffic that increasingly has ADS-B In but not say TCAS the airliners and fast jets have. But to do fully featured Dual-link ADS-B In in a glider today you need a Stratus or Stratux box and a suitable display like Foreflight (my favorite...) today there is no way to integrate that with other glider flight displays... and by then you really risk having too much junk in the cockpit distracting the pilot. There is just no single perfect collision avoidance/awareness system for gliders in the USA. On the other hand we don't need to see more fatal mid-air collisions involving gliders... so we have to do the best we can and pick the technology or combination that works best. Perfect is the enemy of good..... doing nothing because we don't have a perfect systems avaialble is not a good option.

ADS-B has benefits in dense GA environments but it's the most complex and expensive to install. The starting point for glider pilots concerned about airliners, fast jets and military traffic is to equip with a transponder (Mode C is fine). Please talk to the military folks to see what their aircraft are equipped with and if they or ATC can see transponder and how much it will help. For folks mostly concerned about other gliders and towplanes the answer is PowerFLARM but you need multiple community adoption in the local area.

If both "fast jets, airliners, military" and "gliders and tow planes" are concerns then it unfortunately takes both a transponder and PowerFLARM. But it's worth remembering those are usually the first choices, not ADS-B Out and/or In.

The leading edge of ADS-B Out adoption in gliders are folks who already own a suitable Trig transponder and who can install a TN72 GPS Source at relatively low additional cost, and/or who have post January 1 2020 regulatory concerns such as needing to fly in Class A airspace or above Class B/C airspace but below 10,000' and so who will require 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out equipped gliders. Folks who do own a Trig transponder probably should consider adding at least a TN72 at their next annual.

And while Mode C is fine to keep using, any new transponder today should be a Trig TT22 as it provides most ADS-B Out options, and if installing now I'd also install the ~$350 TN72 GPS for 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out in an experimental glider or TABS in a type certified glider... that adds ADS-B Out benefits for a relatively small increase in cost... and while wiring up the transponder you might as well install the TN72.

BTW PowerFLARM (with the ADS-B option) also includes a PCAS capability, so the same PCAS capability as in your ATD-300 for transponder equipped threat aircraft with no 1090ES Out... if the threat has 1090ES Out you get a precise target.

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And yes all this is the technology side of stuff, yes folks need their head outside the cockpit, and it's my experience that pilots who are safety conscious enough to equip with this stuff are already pretty concerned about traffic and careful about looking outside, and PowerFLARM (and PCAS like your ATD-300) are good at reminding them to do that. And lots of other things can be done to understand traffic risks, develop ops and ATC procedures to try to reduce risks, etc.

The sad reality is that the ADS-B equipage rate is pathetically low. Only about 27% of the GA fleet is now equipped. And don't expect any "mad rush" to beat the deadline due to the limited number of avionics shops qualified to do the install. What is even sadder is that equipage in the airline fleet is even LOWER at 20% as of a year ago. The FAA was even compelled to publish a GPS exemption 12555 for these aircraft, the foot-dragging was so bad.

I don't think it is worth to have TABS for this low penetration. I do have Powerflarm, and just ordered a new Air Avionics ATD-57 traffic display. I can do my own traffic avoidance just be seeing what transponder equipped aircraft are near me.

I also have a bone to pick over the size of certified GPS units; they just won't fit in the space I have available.

Tom

Why do you say it doesn't?

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 11:15:06 AM UTC-6, George Haeh wrote:
Air Avionics has recently announced an "Air Traffic" box that combines
Flarm
with GPS suitable for ADS-B Out, at least in EASA land.

https://www.air-avionics.com/?page_id=253

careful with this display if you wear polarized sunglasses. It s polarized exactly the wrong way, and looks 100% black when viewed through polarized glasses.

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 9:52:46 PM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
Why do you say it doesn't?

Are you replying to the VT-01 does not do ADS-B Out statement?

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Why do you think it does?

The problem is "ADS-B" is a fluff marketing term. And as long as vendors keep talking in marketing fluff like that there will be confusion. I'd hope that Air Avionics care about being clear what their products do, including to the USA market, and so be leading more with the actual specs their products meet, unfortunately they really bury this stuff.

The USA glider community already has the issue with missing full 1090ES Support in PowerFLARM, other purchasers don't need to suffer similar problems with Air Avionics transponders. Not when there is a perfectly good options already available from Trig.

As far as I know the VT-01 transponder does not implement RTCA DO-260B and it does not does have the corresponding TSO-C166b approval. DO-260B is the current standard for 1090ES Out, so ya would think somebody claiming to do a Transponder with ADS-B Out would actually meet that standard? Right? Bzzzzt. Wrong. And you can't use old DO-260 or DO-260A complaint or whatever old compliance they actually have for TABS or 2020 Compliance in the USA.

And beyond implementing DO-260B and ideally having a TSO-C166b approval to be practically useful in a certified glider the transponder needs to be pairable with a known TSO-C145c GPS source and have an STC for that install to form the basis for installs using the pairing of the transponder and GPS source. Stuff that all the vendors who work in the USA market have spend the last several years doing. Air Avionics could try to enter the USA market with experimental only coverage but I think you need both, and to be targeting wide than just gliders to justify the effort.

Or even for for TABS installs the vendor needs a suitable TSO-C199 approved for install in certified gliders or "meets requirements of TSO-C199" GPS source that for experimental gliders (but since the TSO is relatively easy there just do what Trig did and get the TSO)... or partner with a vendor who has a TSO-C199 GPS GPS box... but oops the choices there are Trig and Garmin who are competitors.

Even if Air Avionics delivered DO-260B compliance tomorrow they seem so far behind on all the other stuff. I don't assume they are clueless, I assume they just made a decision not to worry about the USA market. Their opacity in actually producing clear spec claims for their products has a certain odor. And some glider manufacturers and avionics resellers have sold Garrecht/Air Avionics Mode S transponders to USA glider pilots... who then find they have no ADS-B Out path available, at least today. If I had been sold those with an expectation they were ADS-B Out compatible I would be asking for a refund.

For many years have I been saying Trig TT22 is *the* transponder to get... because of it's ADS-B Out options. When another manufacturer has a usable 1090ES Out capable transponder suitable for gliders I will mention that as well. Competition for Trig would be great (they might then improve their install documentation).

On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 10:57:44 PM UTC-7, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Thursday, May 3, 2018 at 9:52:46 PM UTC-7, Tango Whisky wrote:
Why do you say it doesn't?

Are you replying to the VT-01 does not do ADS-B Out statement?

---

Why do you think it does?

The problem is "ADS-B" is a fluff marketing term. And as long as vendors keep talking in marketing fluff like that there will be confusion. I'd hope that Air Avionics care about being clear what their products do, including to the USA market, and so be leading more with the actual specs their products meet, unfortunately they really bury this stuff.

The USA glider community already has the issue with missing full 1090ES Support in PowerFLARM, other purchasers don't need to suffer similar problems with Air Avionics transponders. Not when there is a perfectly good options already available from Trig.

As far as I know the VT-01 transponder does not implement RTCA DO-260B and it does not does have the corresponding TSO-C166b approval. DO-260B is the current standard for 1090ES Out, so ya would think somebody claiming to do a Transponder with ADS-B Out would actually meet that standard? Right? Bzzzzt. Wrong. And you can't use old DO-260 or DO-260A complaint or whatever old compliance they actually have for TABS or 2020 Compliance in the USA.

And beyond implementing DO-260B and ideally having a TSO-C166b approval to be practically useful in a certified glider the transponder needs to be pairable with a known TSO-C145c GPS source and have an STC for that install to form the basis for installs using the pairing of the transponder and GPS source. Stuff that all the vendors who work in the USA market have spend the last several years doing. Air Avionics could try to enter the USA market with experimental only coverage but I think you need both, and to be targeting wide than just gliders to justify the effort.

Or even for for TABS installs the vendor needs a suitable TSO-C199 approved for install in certified gliders or "meets requirements of TSO-C199" GPS source that for experimental gliders (but since the TSO is relatively easy there just do what Trig did and get the TSO)... or partner with a vendor who has a TSO-C199 GPS GPS box... but oops the choices there are Trig and Garmin who are competitors.

Even if Air Avionics delivered DO-260B compliance tomorrow they seem so far behind on all the other stuff. I don't assume they are clueless, I assume they just made a decision not to worry about the USA market. Their opacity in actually producing clear spec claims for their products has a certain odor. And some glider manufacturers and avionics resellers have sold Garrecht/Air Avionics Mode S transponders to USA glider pilots... who then find they have no ADS-B Out path available, at least today. If I had been sold those with an expectation they were ADS-B Out compatible I would be asking for a refund.

For many years have I been saying Trig TT22 is *the* transponder to get.... because of it's ADS-B Out options. When another manufacturer has a usable 1090ES Out capable transponder suitable for gliders I will mention that as well. Competition for Trig would be great (they might then improve their install documentation).

Grr typo there, Garmin does not have a TSO-C199/TABS GPS source, only Trig does. Garmin has a low-cost "meets TSO-C145c" GPS source, but that does not help you do TABS in a type certified glider... even if it was technicality able to connect to say a VT-01 transponder.

I made the mistake on the Air Avionics Transponder.

The VT-01 is NOT capable of either a SIL=1 or SIL=3 output. Therefore while it can send an ADS-B “message�, ALL USA ATC or certified ADS-B IN receivers will simply ignore the message. As such, you’re basically invisible. Not much good there....

THE solution is Trig TT22 with a TN72 GPS if you are experimental. Certified and your best choice is TT22 and TN70 GPS.

I recently completed my TT22/TN72 installation with SIL=3 and have checked my FAA report showing no errors.

Richard at craggyaero.com had the stuff in stock and provided additional help with the setup process.

My message for a long time has been: If you fly near areas of dense airliners, fast jets and military traffic, just get a transponder, Mode S or used Mode C does not matter... get what you can afford.


This seems logical, but I heard another corner case where might not be so.

I sat in a presentation from our local Approach Control folks. They noted that with the new ADSB ground stations they had better visibility than from their existing radar plus ModeC. Specifically, low and far out. This like it might permit them to route controlled traffic in new places where gliders are, but where a Mode C transponder on the glider might not help.