Winch accident in New Zealand, can low time student pilot be blamed?

http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.
I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?
Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?
I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?
Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?
When does resposibility of flight instructor end?

Andre

"Andre Volant" wrote in message
om...
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.

As is supposed to be the case.

I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?

Because winching with a nose hook causes a glider to porpoise.

Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?

Any glider with a CG hook. Many gliders are equipped with ONLY a CG hook.

I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?

Probably not complicated at all.

Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?

There was nothing in the Gliding Magazine story about this level of
experience. However, 40 flights and 3:20 of instruction should have been
plenty for a rated pilot to make the transition to winch launch.

The pilot in command is always responsible for weight and balance.

This post and the Gliding Magazine story seems to suggest that there is
something wrong with the use of a CG hook. In fact, there is a great deal
wrong with NOT using a CG hook for winch launch.

A very FEW older gliders exhibit a behavior where the nose will pitch up
uncontrollably if the winch acceleration is too strong. These gliders
usually have high CG's, low CG hooks and small tail surfaces and/or all
moving tails that limit down elevator authority. Good winch drivers know
about them and reduce acceleration accordingly. I don't know if the PeeWee
exhibits these characteristics - since it is a modern design, I doubt that
it does.

The usual cause for accidents of this type is a pilot who starts a climb
before the glider achieves a safe airspeed. This can be compounded in
modern gliders which often require NO back pressure to enter the climb. If
the pilot in under the impression that a strong pull on the stick is
required to enter the climb, problems of this sort may result.

We need to wait the results of the investigation. Rushing to blame the
glider design is almost always the wrong thing to do.

Bill Daniels

I had a Hornet kite on me one time the winch driver saw it and gave it to
the winch.

The trim went to full back as I rotated as the aircraft has the stupidest
spring loaded trim system in the world for winch launching DANGER !

Does the PW5 have the same trim system says the guy was Asian so most of
them are light weights to add to his C of G problems.

Mal

"Bill Daniels" wrote in message
news:dy6sd.186163$HA.103320@attbi_s01...

"Andre Volant" wrote in message
om...
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.

As is supposed to be the case.

I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?

Because winching with a nose hook causes a glider to porpoise.

Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?

Any glider with a CG hook. Many gliders are equipped with ONLY a CG hook.

I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?

Probably not complicated at all.

Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?

There was nothing in the Gliding Magazine story about this level of
experience. However, 40 flights and 3:20 of instruction should have been
plenty for a rated pilot to make the transition to winch launch.

The pilot in command is always responsible for weight and balance.

This post and the Gliding Magazine story seems to suggest that there is
something wrong with the use of a CG hook. In fact, there is a great deal
wrong with NOT using a CG hook for winch launch.

A very FEW older gliders exhibit a behavior where the nose will pitch up
uncontrollably if the winch acceleration is too strong. These gliders
usually have high CG's, low CG hooks and small tail surfaces and/or all
moving tails that limit down elevator authority. Good winch drivers know
about them and reduce acceleration accordingly. I don't know if the
PeeWee
exhibits these characteristics - since it is a modern design, I doubt that
it does.

The usual cause for accidents of this type is a pilot who starts a climb
before the glider achieves a safe airspeed. This can be compounded in
modern gliders which often require NO back pressure to enter the climb.
If
the pilot in under the impression that a strong pull on the stick is
required to enter the climb, problems of this sort may result.

We need to wait the results of the investigation. Rushing to blame the
glider design is almost always the wrong thing to do.

Bill Daniels

On Fri, 03 Dec 2004 23:21:46 GMT, Bill Daniels wrote:

"Andre Volant" wrote in message
om...
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/NewsArticle.asp?id=1371
http://www.glidingmagazine.com/
Correct "CG" release was used, which on PW5 is offsett forward of the
CG.

As is supposed to be the case.

I was told that the nose hook is not allowed for winch towing of PW5.
That's what manual sais, but who knows why?

Because winching with a nose hook causes a glider to porpoise.

Which other gliders are not allowed to be winched by the nose?

Any glider with a CG hook. Many gliders are equipped with ONLY a CG hook.

I was told that PW5 has front and rear ballast weights, how
complicated is it?

Probably not complicated at all.

Who is resposible for checking weight and ballance, if for example
student pilot has 3 hours (40 flights X 5min) of flight experience?

There was nothing in the Gliding Magazine story about this level of
experience. However, 40 flights and 3:20 of instruction should have been
plenty for a rated pilot to make the transition to winch launch.

The pilot in command is always responsible for weight and balance.

This post and the Gliding Magazine story seems to suggest that there is
something wrong with the use of a CG hook. In fact, there is a great deal
wrong with NOT using a CG hook for winch launch.

A very FEW older gliders exhibit a behavior where the nose will pitch up
uncontrollably if the winch acceleration is too strong. These gliders
usually have high CG's, low CG hooks and small tail surfaces and/or all
moving tails that limit down elevator authority. Good winch drivers know
about them and reduce acceleration accordingly. I don't know if the PeeWee
exhibits these characteristics - since it is a modern design, I doubt that
it does.

There have been a couple of incidents in OZ with PW-5s responding
badly to aggressive winch acceleration. I don't know the details
though.

Cheers, John G.

At Lasham in the uk we use powerful winchea(450hp). A couple of makes of glider
have problems if the acceleration is too fierce initially.Typically they have a
Cof G hook mounted well aft, a high glider Cof G, high mounted wing (or the
main drag being relatively high), nose wheel or skid,and light weight.
If you watch them as the cable tighten the tail will bang down (sometimes
harder than you would like) This gives the wings a high angle of attack and the
glider will lift off with the tail skid still on the ground, straight into a
full climb. Quite often the pilot is just a passenger whilst this happens. Once
in the air and sufficient flying speed is reached the elevator will start to
become effective and he can regain control. The two makes that I have flown
that have this problem are the K8 and PW5.
We now teach pilots in the K8 to start the winch with full forward stick until
flying speed has been reached.
A couple of other factor that can make the problem worse. Strong headwind and
my pet hate, soft cushions. If a soft cushion is being used as a backrest in
these circumstances the acceleration and attitude will thow you back
compressing the cushion and not allowing full forward movement of the stick.
Also in the report it mentions a type of tow hook that sometimes jams under
tension, lethal in my opinion, change it.

"OscarCVox" wrote in message
...
At Lasham in the uk we use powerful winchea(450hp). A couple of makes of
glider
have problems if the acceleration is too fierce initially.Typically they
have a
Cof G hook mounted well aft, a high glider Cof G, high mounted wing (or
the
main drag being relatively high), nose wheel or skid,and light weight.
If you watch them as the cable tighten the tail will bang down (sometimes
harder than you would like) This gives the wings a high angle of attack
and the
glider will lift off with the tail skid still on the ground, straight into
a
full climb. Quite often the pilot is just a passenger whilst this happens.
Once
in the air and sufficient flying speed is reached the elevator will start
to
become effective and he can regain control. The two makes that I have
flown
that have this problem are the K8 and PW5.
We now teach pilots in the K8 to start the winch with full forward stick
until
flying speed has been reached.
A couple of other factor that can make the problem worse. Strong headwind
and
my pet hate, soft cushions. If a soft cushion is being used as a backrest
in
these circumstances the acceleration and attitude will thow you back
compressing the cushion and not allowing full forward movement of the
stick.
Also in the report it mentions a type of tow hook that sometimes jams
under
tension, lethal in my opinion, change it.

Oly 463 is another tail stander. I thought soft cushions were banned within
the BGA after a fatality attributed to them.

Frank Whiteley

If a soft cushion is being used as a backrest
in
these circumstances the acceleration and attitude will thow you back
compressing the cushion and not allowing full forward movement of the
stick.

I thought soft cushions were banned within
the BGA after a fatality attributed to them.

I believe that they are, but you still see the occasional idiot using them for
"comfort".
I mentioned it because this is an international newsgroup.

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 23:21:46 UTC, "Bill Daniels"
wrote:

: A very FEW older gliders exhibit a behavior where the nose will pitch up
: uncontrollably if the winch acceleration is too strong. These gliders
: usually have high CG's, low CG hooks and small tail surfaces and/or all
: moving tails that limit down elevator authority. Good winch drivers know
: about them and reduce acceleration accordingly.

Given an over enthusiastic launch, the Pirat will happily take off,
fly level and then rotate into a full climb, and there is absolutely
nothing the pilot can do about it. Except attend to the education of
the winch driver...

One of my pets hates is the belief that it's a good thing to hold down
the tail of some gliders for a winch launch. It isn't. All that
happens is that as soon as the tail holder lets go, the nose slams
down, then the tail slams down even more violently on the rebound.

Ian

--

Holding the tail down works very well with an SGS 2-33 in any situation
where the initial pull is strong. We use that technique in all our ground
launches when we have an extra person. It might not work well with other
ships but it is definitely the preferred method with the 2-33.


One of my pets hates is the belief that it's a good thing to hold down
the tail of some gliders for a winch launch. It isn't. All that
happens is that as soon as the tail holder lets go, the nose slams
down, then the tail slams down even more violently on the rebound.

Ian

--

Right. It works with a 2-33 but it's disaster with a Grob 103. A G103
seems to fly the launch just fine without pilot input as does the L23.

Bill Daniels


"Gary Boggs" wrote in message
...
Holding the tail down works very well with an SGS 2-33 in any situation
where the initial pull is strong. We use that technique in all our ground
launches when we have an extra person. It might not work well with other
ships but it is definitely the preferred method with the 2-33.


One of my pets hates is the belief that it's a good thing to hold down
the tail of some gliders for a winch launch. It isn't. All that
happens is that as soon as the tail holder lets go, the nose slams
down, then the tail slams down even more violently on the rebound.

Ian

--