When has it Been too Long before you solo

JustMe wrote:

[snip]

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

So what? Are you in a race with someone? The only downside of
this many hours is the money. That's all. And in a year or so,
(assuming you still have a job) you probably won't even remember it.

Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

Again I ask, so what?

Bob Moore wrote in message . 121...
(JustMe) wrote

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

WHAT!!!!!!! Are you doing instrument training before solo? WHY????
Fire your instructor immediately!!! Show him this message. I have
solo'ed nit-wits in less than 20 hours.

Bob Moore
ATP CFI
PanAm (retired)

Bob,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am doing hood work before solo. To be fair, the school where
I'm training has a Pre Solo Stage Check requirement. The stage check
is performed by a Designated Check Airman and not the instructor of
record.

I hesitated posting the contents of the Pre Solo Stage Check, since it
is long, but I'll do so now. The stage check last about two hours and
consists of a ground portion (basic knowledge) and a practical portion
(flight maneuvers).

The ground portion covers the following topic:

- Aerodynamics
- Aircraft Systems (Fuel and Electrical)
- FAR part 91 and 61 (certificates and documents)
- Performance and Limitations
- Class B airspace Requirements
- ATC Procedures and Light Gun
- Weather Briefing
- Runway Markings
- Weight and Balance
- Emergency Checklists
- Spin Awareness
- Land and Hold Short (students just say No!)
- Weight Turbulence Avoidance
- Intercept Procedures

The practical portions includes the following maneuvers:

- Pre-flight Inspection
- Starting Engine
- Taxing ( Communications, Normal and Crosswind Taxiing)
- Pre-takeoff Checklist
- Takeoff (Normal and Crosswind)
- Climb Out
- Descents
- Collision Avoidance
- Straight and Level
- Turns
- Steep Turns
- Ground Reference Maneuvers (S -Turns, Turns Around a Point,
Rectangular Course)
- Instrument Procedures
- Minimum Controllable Airspeed and Slow Flight
- Stalls (Departure, Approach and Accelerated)

Turning Page over

- Emergency Procedures ( Engine Failure, Engine Fire, Electrical Fire,
Emergency Descent, Emergency Approach and Landing, Radio Failure and
Open Door In-Flight)
- Landings (Normal, Crosswind, Pattern Work and Go Arounds)
- Securing and Shutdown.

The completion standards a

- Altitude plus/minus 150 feet
- Headings plus/minus 15 degrees
- Airspeed plus/minus 5 knots.

Given that I don't have something to compare against, I can't tell if
this level of proficiency before solo is excessive. Do other schools
have the same requirements?

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

I soloed at 48 hours, without taking any time on instrument flight.

If you are having fun, keep at it. Personally, I think the training
was the most enjoyable part of flying.



all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
the blog www.danford.net

On 15 Nov 2004 21:18:12 -0800, (JustMe) wrote:

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have
any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

Make sure the plane is in perfect trim, and then relax.

Most entry level planes will stay straight and level for 10+ seconds
when trimmed correctly. Because of this, they do not require constant
control corrections. The mistake most new IFR pilots make is to
overcontrol the plane.

-Nathan

(JustMe) wrote

Seeing that Instrument Procedures are a requirement, do you have any
tips, tricks or magic incantation that I can perform so that I won't
be chasing the attitude indicator and heading DG all-over the sky?

The school is all screwed-up. Private Pilots don't begin by flying
by instruments. I require my students to fly entire sessions both
in and out of the pattern with the instrument panel completely covered.
The attitude indicator is a neat gadget, but is certainly not required
for VFR flying in the traffic pattern. One judges aircraft attitude
by looking at the nose of the aircraft. Altitude, Airspeed, and RPM
are all that you should be using in the traffic pattern, if even that.

From FAR 61.87

(c) Pre-solo flight training. Prior to conducting a solo flight,
a student pilot must have:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and
procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and
model of aircraft to be flown; and

(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged
by an authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures
required by this section in the make and model of aircraft or
similar make and model of aircraft to be flown.

(d) Maneuvers and procedures for pre-solo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving training
for a single-engine airplane rating or privileges must receive
and log flight training for the following maneuvers and procedures:

(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight
planning and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;

(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;

(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;

(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;

(5) Climbs and climbing turns;

(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;

(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;

(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;

(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;

(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication
of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;

(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;

(12) Ground reference maneuvers;

(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine
malfunctions;

(14) Slips to a landing; and

(15) Go-arounds.

"JustMe" wrote in message
om...
As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.


Well Justme, you need to step out of that FAR 141 flight program and find
another instructor that can concentrate on your landings with you. Get
those down and then go back to the 141 school or just stay with your new
instructor if you like him.

Allen

On 15 Nov 2004 15:29:15 -0800, (JustMe) wrote:

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
framing and bringing the space back to code.

Just for the record, being smart and having the hand/eye coordination
that allows you to fly and more importantly, land an airplane are two
different things. However, it sounds like you have the required
coordination.

Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.

I don't think it's the instructor.

Actually, it could be the instructor, see below.

He is not someone who is teaching
just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.

At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
scored average to excellent.

Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

See below JustMe, underhood proficiency is NOT listed in the FAA's
pre-solo requirements.

§ 61.87 Solo requirements for student
pilots.
(a) General. A student pilot may not operate an aircraft in solo
flight unless that student has met the requirements of this section.
The term ‘‘solo flight’’ as used in this subpart means that flight
time during which a student pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft
or that flight time during which the student performs the duties of a
pilot in command of a gas balloon or an airship requiring more than
one pilot flight crewmember.

(b) Aeronautical knowledge. A student pilot must demonstrate
satisfactory aeronautical knowledge on a knowledge test that meets the
requirements of this paragraph:
(1) The test must address the student pilot’s knowledge of—
(i) Applicable sections of parts 61 and 91 of this chapter;
(ii) Airspace rules and procedures for the airport where the solo
flight will be performed; and
(iii) Flight characteristics and operational limitations for the make
and model of aircraft to be flown.
(2) The student’s authorized instructor must—
(i) Administer the test; and
(ii) At the conclusion of the test, review all incorrect answers with
the student before authorizing that student to conduct a solo flight.

(c)PRE-SOLO FLIGHT TRAINING. PRIOR TO CONDUCTING A SOLO FLIGHT, A
STUDENT MUST HAVE:

(1) Received and logged flight training for the maneuvers and
procedures of this section that are appropriate to the make and model
of aircraft to be flown; and
(2) Demonstrated satisfactory proficiency and safety, as judged by an
authorized instructor, on the maneuvers and procedures required by
this section in the make and model of aircraft or similar make and
model of aircraft to be flown.
(d) Maneuvers and procedures for presolo flight training in a
single-engine airplane. A student pilot who is receiving
training for a single-engine airplane rating must receive and log
flight training for the following maneuvers
and procedures:
(1) Proper flight preparation procedures, including preflight planning
and preparation, powerplant operation, and aircraft systems;
(2) Taxiing or surface operations, including runups;
(3) Takeoffs and landings, including normal and crosswind;
(4) Straight and level flight, and turns in both directions;
(5) Climbs and climbing turns;
(6) Airport traffic patterns, including entry and departure
procedures;
(7) Collision avoidance, windshear avoidance, and wake turbulence
avoidance;
(8) Descents, with and without turns, using high and low drag
configurations;
(9) Flight at various airspeeds from cruise to slow flight;
(10) Stall entries from various flight attitudes and power
combinations with recovery initiated at the first indication
of a stall, and recovery from a full stall;
(11) Emergency procedures and equipment malfunctions;
(12) Ground reference maneuvers;
(13) Approaches to a landing area with simulated engine malfunctions;
(14) Slips to a landing; and
(15) Go-arounds.

Think about it. During a solo, you're going to be flying the pattern.
That's it. You don't need cross country skills, don't need underhood
experience because if the weather is that bad, you don't fly that day.
You only solo when the weather conditions allow it.

If the FAA doesn't require underhood proficiency, why is your
instructor requiring it?

Good luck with this, I'd hate to have been in your shoes and have to
confront my instructor, but it appears you must either do that or just
find someone else.

Corky (I sure didn't have to have underhood experience to solo) Scott

I am not a CFI but I think, based on what you said, that you are ready to
solo. Once a student can perform the tasks required to solo (fly around the
pattern) without the outcome being seriously in doubt, he should be signed
off to solo. Landing dead-center on the runway and instrument flight
shouldn't be required.

Mike
MU-2


"JustMe" wrote in message
om...
As a society, we are obsessed with Numbers. We use them to compare
ourselves to others. I make X number of dollars, I have house of Y
square feet. My car, truck or other vehicle has an engine of W liter
(cubic inches for the metrically challenged).

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot. If they do it in less than the average, then it's 'look at me,
I'm great'. If they do it in the 'average' amount of time, then they
are doing OK. But, when their number of hours is greater than the
average, they may feel that something is wrong with them. "Am I
stupid?". "Am I slow?". "Should I quit now?".

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

With simulated instrument flight, I can do straight and level and
turns. But when combined with climbs and or descents, I don't meet the
PTS requirements. Either I blow the altitude or the heading. Take the
hood off and I can climb, turn, fiddle with the radio and look for
traffic (while chewing gum) without blowing headings or altitudes.

Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, since
when we fly to CMP (Compton) or TOA (Torrance), I have no problem
staying on the runway center-line. But at LGB I can track the
center-line up to the flare, after the flare at touchdown I'm off the
centerline. Am I in the weeds? No. I'm usually 20-30 feet left or
right of the centerline.

Am I stupid? I don't think so. I studied Chemical Engineering and
Computer Science in college and I work as a Software Architect for
manufacturer of large transport category airplanes. Before someone
concludes that I'm a bookworm, I've renovated two houses mostly on my
own. When I say renovate, I mean gutting most of space down to the
framing and bringing the space back to code.

Am I slow? I read slowly, but otherwise see above.

I don't think it's the instructor. He is not someone who is teaching
just to build time and then move on to bigger airplanes. The only
comment I could make and I suspect that it would apply to many
instructors, is that he points too many things out. Yes, I know I blew
the altitude or the heading, pointing it out each time can get really
old, really fast. A suggestion for CFIs, sometimes it's better to wait
until the maneuver is completed before saying something. Of course, if
it's a safety of flight issue, then by all means say something.

At the school where I am learning, the instructor grades your
performance after each flight on a scale from 1 to 5. Where 1 is
deemed excellent and 5 is considered unsatisfactory. With 3 being
average. Reviewing my training records, I haven't scored greater than
a 3 since lesson number 13. From lesson 14 through lesson 33, I've
scored average to excellent.

Should I quit now? That is what I'm pondering. 47.7 hours and still no
solo.

Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
only saying 'don't give up'.

Cub Driver wrote:

I unfortunately find myself in the latter category... 47.7 hours and
no solo yet. Only two issues remain: simulated instrument flight and
landings.

I soloed at 48 hours, without taking any time on instrument flight.

I was required 3 hours of it...

If you are having fun, keep at it. Personally, I think the training
was the most enjoyable part of flying.

Ditto on what Dan said, if its fun then you'll enjoy it no matter how
long it takes. You don't mention what plane it is you are flying and
that might be a part of it, if its a very complex/difficult model. I've
soloed in 4 different types (my first time at the minimum) but they
aren't all that different (C177, C150, C152, C172) and am currently
working on (2 hours sofar) a tailwheel endorsement. I completed all my
dual/solo training requirements a year ago next month, I started flight
training last November, flunked the written back in May (by 4 points,
didn't study) and haven't gone back yet. I get signed off every 90 days
to continue solo flight and have over 104 hours sofar and have enjoyed
every minute of it. But then I don't fly out of controlled space, I
actually have to fly to it. I'm sure you'll make a very competent pilot
from the extra work required from the areas you are always in. And all
your instrument training is never lost, that is carried over to your
next license... G

"JustMe" wrote in message
om...

As such, when someone asks "What is the average hours before
soloing?", they are trying to compare themselves to the 'average'
pilot.

Hours-to-solo are like your grades in high school: something you worry about
intensely that cease to matter the minute you get into college. The minute
you solo you will cease to care how long it took you to get there. Trust me
on this.

Landings. I fly out of LGB (Long Beach) and LGB is cursed with
WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIDE runways. I say cursed, SNIP

Sounds like a basic problem that a good instructor could remedy in a few
hours. I wouldn't lose sleep over it.

Also, learning at a big field like LGB poses its own challenges- busy
pattern, ATC procedures and all that. This can easily add 10-15 hours to
your time-to-finish, but you'll get it back if and when you go for your
instrument rating.

I don't think it's the instructor.

Assuming you are making good landings on smaller runways as you describe,
then I would say it is the instructor.

Constructive suggestions or criticisms welcomed. Please refrain from
only saying 'don't give up'.

Tactically, it sounds like you may be fixating on getting the flare just
right, with the side effect that you lose track of your heading. On narrower
runways this doesn't happen as much because small heading deviations are
much more noticeable. Just my guess as a non-CFI. My advice: relax and fly
the airplane. It sounds cliche but there you go. If your instructor is
jabbering at you the whole way down he's probably not helping. Tell him to
shut up.

Strategically, I think you need to do a little experiment. There's an awful
lot of flight schools in your area, go to another one. Call and make an
appointment to talk to a senior instructor and tell them your full situation
and say you want to fly at least three hours with them over two or three
lessons, so they have time to get to know you a bit. I know you may feel
some sort of attachment to the other school, but deal with it. This is
business and they'll understand.

Second, if you haven't done the written yet, do it NOW. I have a feeling
that once you get the right instructor you will move through the rest of the
PPL program very quickly and you don't want the written test holding you up.

Best,
-cwk.