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#41
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"WalterM140" wrote in message ... I wrote: What I can't understand how little you seem to care about the guys who are getting KIA and WIA following up on a bad policy -- and what General Zinni called --dereliction-- of-- duty--. I just can't figure it. Ed: Trust me, I care very much about the folks in uniform. Then act like it. General Zinni: "My son is a Marine Officer in the infantry. I lost a member of my family in Iraq, the son of my cousin, already. So, it's become very personal. Not to mention, just every one of those faces I see, I recognize. I mean, not directly, but these are, I mean, knew those sergeants and corporals and PFCs after 40 years, that paid a price for this, you know?" You might consider that sort of thing yourself. The former SecNav and the former CG of Centcom are calling this a blunder -- a blunder attended with 5,000 casualties, and all you do is spout the Bushco blather. While we're at it, let's give the other critics who also knew a little about wars their due. No need to omit Brent Scowcroft, Norman Scwarzkopf, or Wesley Clark from the list of those who gave long years of service to their country and who, like Anthony Zinni, think this war was a disaster from the gitgo. All of the fishing around looking for excuses to go to war that the public might buy done by our leaders tells us that this was a war fought to satisfy their visceral needs far more than it served our nation's needs. They just couldn't resist satisfying the need to be heroes if they could find a way to do it without risk to their skins. That explains going to war a lot more than the phony excuses they tried to foist off on us, one after another as they failed to hold water on presentation. George Z. Walt |
#42
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#43
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Subject: General Zinni on Sixty Minutes
From: Ed Rasimus On 27 May 2004 11:13:38 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote: Now, all that being said, just who the **** are you to tell me how to act? Now Ed, be nice. Remember you are an officer and a gentleman. (grin) Arthur Kramer 344th BG 494th BS England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany Visit my WW II B-26 website at: http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer |
#44
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Who are the
Germans to tell us when and where to get involved? We kicked their ass twice on behalf of the French last century. Alone?,As far as I could remember US was the part of a global alliance. In spite of all numerical odds,Germans would still have kicked ass of the Global Alliance if they had a couple of months more time. Reality is that Brzezinkis ambitious "Eurasia" plan has been defeated and US is being pushed out of Eurasia to Cyprus-Turkey-Iran-Afghanistan line without firing one shot in Anger. Some nations have plenty of military power ,some others plenty of Brainpower. Nations with Brainpower can create a formidable military within very short time,but nations with military power but no Brainpower may need centuries to to build Brainpower. America was attacked. We identified the source of the attack--the terrorist organization responsible Nobody attacked US,it was another domestic PSYOP designed to "vaccinate" US aganist future threats and natural disasters. (I hope you know why and how medical professionals use vaccines) We will be well served by establishment of a democracy in the middle East. We will benefit from the removal of Saddam. We are doing what is US interests are best served by the installation of Saddam 2.0 version of Operating system. (I cant imagine why a democracy or voters in a democracy should or would approve the colonization of their countries ,examples Philippines,Turkey and recently India) Now, all that being said, just who the **** are you to tell me how to act? Beginning of a healthy and democratic discussion. |
#46
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On 27 May 2004 14:12:14 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
Subject: General Zinni on Sixty Minutes From: Ed Rasimus On 27 May 2004 11:13:38 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote: Now, all that being said, just who the **** are you to tell me how to act? Now Ed, be nice. Remember you are an officer and a gentleman. (grin) And a warrior. And a bunch of other things as well. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#47
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On Thu, 27 May 2004 10:59:43 -0400, "George Z. Bush"
wrote: Ed Rasimus wrote: On 27 May 2004 11:13:38 GMT, (WalterM140) wrote: Ed: Trust me, I care very much about the folks in uniform. Then act like it. Walt Tsk. Tsk. You lose the high ground when you lose your temper. He's entitled to disagree with you, as you are with him, but there's no need for anyone to be disagreeable about it. Let's keep the discussion on a civil plane, please. I don't lose my temper, however I also have a deep reluctance to suffer fools, gladly or not. Until someone offers credentials, I won't be told whether or not I value our troops nor how to act. BTW, your comment on the French was ill advised, IMHO. They were exposed to Islamic terrorism long before we were when Algeria blew up in their faces after WWII. It might benefit us to try to learn something from their experiences with it instead of trying to put them down because they refuse to dance to our tune. In addition, their current contributions to our efforts against terrorism in Afghanistan is somewhat larger than many of those of our vaunted coalition allies in Iraq. They deserve somewhat better than the condescension with which you deal with them. But that's just my opinion, and I hope you will allow me that without tearing me a new asshole for daring to make that point. It wasn't condescension, it was merely statement of fact. There is hardly a nation in the world that hasn't suffered terrorism in one form or another--much of it isn't muslim extremist. But, it is difficult to deny the fact that failure to respond to terrorism doesn't offer much in the way of results. To abjectly declare that we are somehow responsible for it and that if we simply understand their pain, join hands and sing Kumbaya together it will all go away is foolishness of the highest order. Simply declining to participate would have been a choice available to the French, however undermining our diplomatic efforts, duplicity in the UN and a clear economic linkage to the Saddam regime have combined to make the French involvement in the Iraq question less than reasonable behavior. As for any rending, tearing or surgical rearrangement of your posterior, I will refrain since you have demonstrated your bona fides on numerous occasions. While we disagree on some issues, the discussion is on the issue itself and not what you should or should not be doing in regard to a particular sense of values. Ed Rasimus Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret) "When Thunder Rolled" Smithsonian Institution Press ISBN #1-58834-103-8 |
#48
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Ed Rasimus wrote:
"George Z. Bush" wrote: Tsk. Tsk. You lose the high ground when you lose your temper. He's entitled to disagree with you, as you are with him, but there's no need for anyone to be disagreeable about it. Let's keep the discussion on a civil plane, please. I don't lose my temper, however I also have a deep reluctance to suffer fools, gladly or not. Until someone offers credentials, I won't be told whether or not I value our troops nor how to act. I'm in agreement with everything you wrote and I knew that you didn't lose your temper. Even if you had, fighter pilots are entitled to spew a little napalm from time to time. |
#49
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Walt:
You do understand that when you change the subject (as with this sub-thread), most of us assume you are ceding the original point. Just thought I'd remind you. The new issue you introduce ("wrongness" of Clinton policy) has already been handled elsewhere. As to Zinni's credentials/opinion (the original point), are you ceding that his participation in creating the "Other" policy (failed or not) has more to do with his current opinion than any rational analysis of the facts? You know, the "Clarke Effect?" Steve Swartz "WalterM140" wrote in message ... From: "Leslie Swartz" Zinni strongly supported the Clinton line (he helped develop it), and continues to refuse to admit the line was wrong. Why wrong? I don't think the Clinton "line" produced 5,000 battle casualties. We've been in Iraq for 14 months. To whom are we giving control of the country on 6/30/04? No one knows. I don't need a 4 star general to tell me that this is a disaster. Walt |
#50
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Chad:
"Cut from the same cloth" is a little too polite. These are (mainly? all?) the same damn people *directly* responsible for the failed policies that made our current effort in large part necessary. Zinni, Clark, Clarke, Clinton, Gore, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum ad vomitum. To hear them now spouting off about the current effort to clean up their mess is indeed quite "ironical," isn't it? I mean, like Jamie Gorelick spoutning off about intelligence failures because the FBI and CIA didn't share enough information . . . TWILIGHT ZONE! Steve Swartz "Chad Irby" wrote in message m... In article , (WalterM140) wrote: From: "Leslie Swartz" Zinni strongly supported the Clinton line (he helped develop it), and continues to refuse to admit the line was wrong. Why wrong? I don't think the Clinton "line" produced 5,000 battle casualties. We've been in Iraq for 14 months. To whom are we giving control of the country on 6/30/04? No one knows. I don't need a 4 star general to tell me that this is a disaster. On the other hand, the folks who are telling us things like "this is a disaster" are cut from the same cloth as the people who were telling us that there would be upwards of a half-*million* dead during the conflict and in the months afterwards, with the "smart money" coming in at over a hundred thousand (the low estimate by most antiwar folks was 20,000 or so dead, but that was the extreme lowball by the more optimistic folks), with a half-million or more refugees flooding the neighboring countries. UNHCR said there would be *900,000* refugees from the war, that all health, food, and water distribution would be effectively shut down for a long time, creating a huge humanitarian catastrophe with upwards of a half-million direct physical casualties. Epidemics and pandemics of cholera and dysentery were supposed to happen. Three million people were supposed to be in need of "therapeutic" feedings due to food shortages. How about this little bit of prognostication? http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...nsequences/200 3/0214grimpict.htm Note the complete lack of these events coming to pass... -- cirby at cfl.rr.com Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations. Slam on brakes accordingly. |
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