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#41
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message ... Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but they did *support* it. Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in the history of 800 Squadron? The question might better be "What does the official 800 Squadron history say it was doing during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944? What does the official history of HMS Emperor say it was doing in that same time period. Not the web history, but the official history in the RN archives. If you go to http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm , in the body it makes no mention of Emperor supporting the Normandy landings. But if you look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among its battle honors. There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's history as it appears on the web. One source mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but makes no mention of them in the invasion of southern France in the body of the history. But it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor. This source, http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before participating in the invasion of Southern France. It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at the time of the invasion and Emperor was present in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron. One needs to get to the original sources to truly answer the question of Emperor being at or near Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always consistent. -- Lynn in StLou REMOVETHIS anti-spam measure to reply |
#42
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
Lynn in StLou wrote:
Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "Enzo Matrix" wrote in message ... Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but they did *support* it. Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in the history of 800 Squadron? The question might better be "What does the official 800 Squadron history say it was doing during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944? What does the official history of HMS Emperor say it was doing in that same time period. Not the web history, but the official history in the RN archives. If you go to http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm , in the body it makes no mention of Emperor supporting the Normandy landings. But if you look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among its battle honors. There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's history as it appears on the web. One source mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but makes no mention of them in the invasion of southern France in the body of the history. But it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor. This source, http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before participating in the invasion of Southern France. It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at the time of the invasion and Emperor was present in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron. One needs to get to the original sources to truly answer the question of Emperor being at or near Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always consistent. That's *always* good advice. However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons (800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment that the Normandy landings were happening. And if that *was* the case, was Emperor employed as an ASW ship without any aircraft aboard? Sub hunting is a job for a destroyer or corvette - not a carrier! This thread has raised some very interesting questions. -- Enzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. |
#43
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
Enzo Matrix wrote:
Lynn in StLou wrote: Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "Enzo Matrix" wrote in message ... Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but they did *support* it. Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in the history of 800 Squadron? The question might better be "What does the official 800 Squadron history say it was doing during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944? What does the official history of HMS Emperor say it was doing in that same time period. Not the web history, but the official history in the RN archives. If you go to http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm , in the body it makes no mention of Emperor supporting the Normandy landings. But if you look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among its battle honors. There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's history as it appears on the web. One source mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but makes no mention of them in the invasion of southern France in the body of the history. But it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor. This source, http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before participating in the invasion of Southern France. It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at the time of the invasion and Emperor was present in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron. One needs to get to the original sources to truly answer the question of Emperor being at or near Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always consistent. That's *always* good advice. However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons (800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment that the Normandy landings were happening. The squadrons may have been removed for refitting as part of normal rotation. Most likely working up for the invasion of Southern France. They are not the only squadrons in the FAA. But remember that only one source cites this and it could well be wrong. And if that *was* the case, was Emperor employed as an ASW ship without any aircraft aboard? Sub hunting is a job for a destroyer or corvette - not a carrier! This thread has raised some very interesting questions. The Hellcat was not an ASW aircraft, so its presence is not relevant to ASW work. Emperor may have sailed with only ASW aircraft. Not sure what FAA was using for ASW at that time. -- Lynn in StLou REMOVETHIS anti-spam measure to reply |
#44
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
"Lynn in StLou" wrote in message ... The question might better be "What does the official 800 Squadron history say it was doing during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944? What does the official history of HMS Emperor say it was doing in that same time period. Not the web history, but the official history in the RN archives. We'll work on those questions next. If you go to http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm , in the body it makes no mention of Emperor supporting the Normandy landings. But if you look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among its battle honors. Been there. There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's history as it appears on the web. One source mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but makes no mention of them in the invasion of southern France in the body of the history. But it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor. How is that a hole? This source, http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before participating in the invasion of Southern France. It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at the time of the invasion and Emperor was present in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron. Both squadrons were operating Hellcats at the time, the "absorbing" process would seem to be mostly paperwork. HMS Emperor is not listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE in any capacity. No aircraft carriers are listed. There wouldn't seem to be a need for them with thousands of land-based aircraft available. One needs to get to the original sources to truly answer the question of Emperor being at or near Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always consistent. Have at it. |
#45
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message ... However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons (800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment that the Normandy landings were happening. Wouldn't seem to be a need for carrier-based aircraft to support the invasion with thousands of land-based aircraft available. I'd expect to find the carriers conducting operations somewhere land-based aircraft couldn't reach. |
#46
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
"Lynn in StLou" wrote in message .. . The squadrons may have been removed for refitting as part of normal rotation. Most likely working up for the invasion of Southern France. They are not the only squadrons in the FAA. But remember that only one source cites this and it could well be wrong. It appears the carriers Tracker, Pursuer and Emperor were on U-boat patrol about 300 miles west of Normandy during the landings. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...-7.htm#cn417-3 |
#47
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
Major snippage for brevity... HMS Emperor is not listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE in any capacity. No aircraft carriers are listed. There wouldn't seem to be a need for them with thousands of land-based aircraft available. The following is provided in another post... t appears the carriers Tracker, Pursuer and Emperor were on U-boat patrol about 300 miles west of Normandy during the landings. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...-7.htm#cn417-3 This reference is titled *DEFENSIVE MEASURES -- NEPTUNE OPERATION* and in its footnotes mentions Tracker, Pursuer, and Emperor. The document says they were part of a force provided by CinC Western Approaches to counter U-boat movement from the north. That does not support your position that there were no aircraft carriers. All three carriers are credited with battle honors at Normandy. -- Lynn in StLou REMOVETHIS anti-spam measure to reply |
#48
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
"Lynn in StLou" wrote in message . .. Steven P. McNicoll wrote: Major snippage for brevity... HMS Emperor is not listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE in any capacity. No aircraft carriers are listed. There wouldn't seem to be a need for them with thousands of land-based aircraft available. The following is provided in another post... t appears the carriers Tracker, Pursuer and Emperor were on U-boat patrol about 300 miles west of Normandy during the landings. http://www.history.navy.mil/library/...-7.htm#cn417-3 This reference is titled *DEFENSIVE MEASURES -- NEPTUNE OPERATION* and in its footnotes mentions Tracker, Pursuer, and Emperor. The document says they were part of a force provided by CinC Western Approaches to counter U-boat movement from the north. That does not support your position that there were no aircraft carriers. I didn't say there were no carriers, I said there were no carriers listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE. If you have information to the contrary please present it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Neptune All three carriers are credited with battle honors at Normandy. Can you cite an official source for that assertion? |
#49
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Enzo Matrix" wrote in message ... However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons (800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment that the Normandy landings were happening. Wouldn't seem to be a need for carrier-based aircraft to support the invasion with thousands of land-based aircraft available. I'd expect to find the carriers conducting operations somewhere land-based aircraft couldn't reach. I agree. But that would still make it somewhat illogical to remove two squadrons worth of aircraft from the line of battle just at the moment when they would be most needed. -- Enzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. |
#50
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Hellcat Mk I - NICE ! ! !
Lynn in StLou wrote:
Enzo Matrix wrote: Lynn in StLou wrote: Steven P. McNicoll wrote: "Enzo Matrix" wrote in message ... Steven's link http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avf6f.html#m4 states "The Hellcat Is did not participate in the Normandy invasion in June 1944". It seems most unlikely that a valuable resource such as a squadron of very potent fighters would have sat out the biggest operation of the war. It may be splitting hairs, but there is a way that we can *both* be right. It is possible that Emperor's Hellcats were directly involved in fighter cover for the ASW screen, either in the Western Approaches or in the English Channel itself, and so did not actually make an appearance over the Normandy beach head. Therefore, they didn't actually *participate* in the invasion, but they did *support* it. Then why isn't HMS Emperor listed among the participating ships of Operation NEPTUNE, and why isn't the Normandy invasion mentioned in the history of 800 Squadron? The question might better be "What does the official 800 Squadron history say it was doing during the time of June 1 to June 10, 1944? What does the official history of HMS Emperor say it was doing in that same time period. Not the web history, but the official history in the RN archives. If you go to http://www.royalnavyresearcharchive....RT/EMPEROR.htm , in the body it makes no mention of Emperor supporting the Normandy landings. But if you look at the sidebar, it lists Normandy 1944 among its battle honors. There seems to be similar holes in 800 squadron's history as it appears on the web. One source mentions their support of the Tirpitz raids, but makes no mention of them in the invasion of southern France in the body of the history. But it lists Southern France 1944 as a battle honor. This source, http://www.answers.com/topic/no-800-naval-air-squadron indicates 800 Squadron was in the process of absorbing 804 Squadron in June, 1944 before participating in the invasion of Southern France. It is possible that 800 was busy absorbing 804 at the time of the invasion and Emperor was present in an ASW role sans 800 Squadron. One needs to get to the original sources to truly answer the question of Emperor being at or near Normandy. As you can see, the web is not always consistent. That's *always* good advice. However, it does seem a little strange to me that *two* whole squadrons (800 and 804) were removed from the line of battle just at the very moment that the Normandy landings were happening. The squadrons may have been removed for refitting as part of normal rotation. Most likely working up for the invasion of Southern France. They are not the only squadrons in the FAA. But remember that only one source cites this and it could well be wrong. And if that *was* the case, was Emperor employed as an ASW ship without any aircraft aboard? Sub hunting is a job for a destroyer or corvette - not a carrier! This thread has raised some very interesting questions. The Hellcat was not an ASW aircraft, so its presence is not relevant to ASW work. Emperor may have sailed with only ASW aircraft. Not sure what FAA was using for ASW at that time. Tarpons (TBM Avengers) and Barracudas. However, earlier in the war Martlets were often used as U-boat spotters. There is no reason why Hellcats couldn't be used in a similar manner. -- Enzo I wear the cheese. It does not wear me. |
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