dropped in D

I recently made a flight from Sumter, SC (SMS) to Columbia Metro
(CAE). Just after takeoff from Sumter, I contacted Shaw AFB approach,
told the controller that I was going to Columbia Metro, and got flight
following. Between Shaw class C airspace and Columbia class C
airspace there is Mc Entire ANGS class D airspace. As I approached Mc
Entire airspace, I figured that I was OK to enter because I had
established two-way communications with Shaw approach. After I got in
the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation
of 91.129(c)(1))? If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,
I would have expected a handoff to either the Mc Entire tower
controller or to the Columbia approach controller, as opposed to a
"...suggest you contact...".

Also, 91.129(d) says "Each person who operates an aircraft in a class
D airspace area must maintain two-way radio communications with the
ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area." Where is "..the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over that area" defined? For example,
for the Mc Entire class D airspace, is this just the Mc Entire tower,
or do Shaw approach and Columbia approach also have jurisdiction over
that area? And if it is only the tower, then why didn't Shaw approach
hand me off to the Mc Entire tower prior to my entering the Mc Entire
class D airspace? (Note that the Shaw controller did not sound busy
and my flight path was such that it should have been obvious that I
was going through.)

Sorry for so many questions... I just want to do things 100% right
(well at least 90% of the time :-) )!

Arden

Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C,D, then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.

An example would be where you have established flight following and
announced that you are at 3,000ft. Then over Mc Entire, you decide to
descend to 2,000 feet. Nothing prevents you from to doing so under FF but
you would be compelled to contact the tower to enter the Class D.

But I'm just thinking off the top of my head.

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
om...
I recently made a flight from Sumter, SC (SMS) to Columbia Metro
(CAE). Just after takeoff from Sumter, I contacted Shaw AFB approach,
told the controller that I was going to Columbia Metro, and got flight
following. Between Shaw class C airspace and Columbia class C
airspace there is Mc Entire ANGS class D airspace. As I approached Mc
Entire airspace, I figured that I was OK to enter because I had
established two-way communications with Shaw approach. After I got in
the middle of Mc Entire class D airspace, Shaw approach gave me "radar
services terminated, squawk VFR, for further flight following suggest
you contact Columbia approach on 133.4". Hmmmm.... Doesn't this mean
that the instant after he terminated me, that I was not in two-way
communication with the ATC facility (and unintentionally in violation
of 91.129(c)(1))? If so, what action should I have taken? Honestly,
I would have expected a handoff to either the Mc Entire tower
controller or to the Columbia approach controller, as opposed to a
"...suggest you contact...".

Also, 91.129(d) says "Each person who operates an aircraft in a class
D airspace area must maintain two-way radio communications with the
ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area." Where is "..the ATC
facility having jurisdiction over that area" defined? For example,
for the Mc Entire class D airspace, is this just the Mc Entire tower,
or do Shaw approach and Columbia approach also have jurisdiction over
that area? And if it is only the tower, then why didn't Shaw approach
hand me off to the Mc Entire tower prior to my entering the Mc Entire
class D airspace? (Note that the Shaw controller did not sound busy
and my flight path was such that it should have been obvious that I
was going through.)

Sorry for so many questions... I just want to do things 100% right
(well at least 90% of the time :-) )!

Arden

"Maule Driver" wrote in message r.com...
Interesting question. Without trying to look it up, I would say that it is
your responsibility to remain clear or make contact with Mc Entire Tower
when VFR.

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count? Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.

You don't have a clearance of any sort so your path of flight as well as
altitude is at your discretion. If you are in Class B,C,D, then the
controller can give you vectors and altitudes but doesn't necessarily have
to under FF.

An example would be where you have established flight following and
announced that you are at 3,000ft. Then over Mc Entire, you decide to
descend to 2,000 feet. Nothing prevents you from to doing so under FF but
you would be compelled to contact the tower to enter the Class D.

I varied neither my heading nor my altitude.

Arden

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?

No.

My hypothesis is that the controller did himself and you a favor. McEntire
called and asked if anyone was talking to you, the controller dropped you,
and then replied, no. File the ASRS within ten days.

Flying VFR, there are no direction of flight restrictions below 3000 AGL, so
a climb to an altitude, 2600 AGL in most cases, allows you to avoid Class D.
If weather is a factor, circumnavigate the airspace or call the tower. For
the controller, simply advise of your intentions (climb, or leaving freq.).

--

Bob
PP-ASEL-IA, A/IGI

Robert Henry wrote:
"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?


No.

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't? 14CFR 91.129
does not specify that the pilot must establish or maintain
communications with the control tower, simply with "the ATC
facility providing air traffic services". A radar facility
which provides approach services to a class D airport certainly
counts.

From 7110.65:
2-1-16 Surface Areas
b. Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit
authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service
to an aircraft that will enter another facilities airspace

Note: the pilot is not expected to obtain his own authorization
through each area when in contact with a radar facility

My hypothesis is that the controller did himself and you a favor.

You can hypothesize anything you want, but if McEntire called
the radar controller and asked if anyone was talking to that
code in his airspace, the radar controller dropped the ball and
is in error. This is clearly spelled out in the regulations
he must follow.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...

Yes, it does. Why would you think it doesn't?
[14CFR 91.129
does not specify that the pilot must establish or maintain
communications with the control tower, simply with "the ATC
facility providing air traffic services". ]

14CFR 91.126d as referenced in 14CFR 91.129a?


A radar facility
which provides approach services to a class D airport certainly
counts.

According to whom? I see several references to the "ATC facility having
jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area." Can there be more than one
facility with that authority?

Flying VFR, there are no direction of flight restrictions below 3000 AGL, so
a climb to an altitude, 2600 AGL in most cases, allows you to avoid Class D.
If weather is a factor, circumnavigate the airspace or call the tower. For
the controller, simply advise of your intentions (climb, or leaving freq.).

In this case, I was crossing east-to-west, there was adverse weather
to the south, a restricted area to the north, and a low ceiling
preventing me from clearing this airspace above. In general, while it
might be possible for me to circumnavigate controlled airspaces in
order not to worry about additional regulations, I personally do not
want to get into this habit. Where it is safe, legal, and convenient
for me to fly through, I prefer to know and adhere to the applicable
regulations and navigate "as the crow flies". Just a personal
preference, I guess. Anyway, that's why I'm seeking clarification,
for the future.

thank-you
Arden

Arden Prinz wrote:

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count? Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.

Yes, it counts.

Shaw approach is responsible to coordinate class D transitions if
you are receiving radar services from them when you enter class
D surface area.

This is clearly spelled out in the controller's regulations
(7110.65).

The only complication in your case is that they terminated
your radar services while you were in the Class D area, making
it hard to "maintain continuous communication". In that
case, I would call the tower before switching code, giving
location and intentions and saying something like "I had
radar services from Shaw, I assume they coordinated with you
before I entered".

Even facilities which normally don't coordinate (as they're
supposed to) won't generally get in a p***ing match on freq
with a pilot who politely makes it clear he knows how it's
supposed to work.

If it makes you feel better though, you can file an ASRS
describing the quandry you were placed in, maybe someone will
tweak some procedures at Shaw Approach.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Sydney Hoeltzli" wrote in message
...
Arden Prinz wrote:

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count? Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.

Yes, it counts.

Shaw approach is responsible to coordinate class D transitions if
you are receiving radar services from them when you enter class
D surface area.

This is clearly spelled out in the controller's regulations
(7110.65).

The only complication in your case is that they terminated
your radar services while you were in the Class D area, making
it hard to "maintain continuous communication". In that
case, I would call the tower before switching code, giving
location and intentions and saying something like "I had
radar services from Shaw, I assume they coordinated with you
before I entered".


There's no need to call the tower. Assuming the Shaw controller did his job
properly the tower knows he's there and what he's doing. He was relieved of
the requirements of FAR 91.129(c)(1) in accordance with FAR 91.129(a).


§ 91.129 Operations in Class D airspace.

(a) General. Unless otherwise authorized or required by the ATC facility
having jurisdiction over the Class D airspace area, each person operating an
aircraft in Class D airspace must comply with the applicable provisions of
this section. In addition, each person must comply with §§ 91.126 and
91.127. For the purpose of this section, the primary airport is the airport
for which the Class D airspace area is designated. A satellite airport is
any other airport within the Class D airspace area.



Even facilities which normally don't coordinate (as they're
supposed to) won't generally get in a p***ing match on freq
with a pilot who politely makes it clear he knows how it's
supposed to work.

If it makes you feel better though, you can file an ASRS
describing the quandry you were placed in, maybe someone will
tweak some procedures at Shaw Approach.

Cheers,
Sydney

"Arden Prinz" wrote in message
m...

I realize that it is my responsibility to remain clear or have two way
communications. Well, I had two way communications with ATC -- I was
in communications with Shaw Approach. Does that count?


Yes, but you have to give them a fighting chance to coordinate the
transition. You can't call Shaw approach just as you're about to enter the
McEntire Class D airspace.



Normally I
think Shaw Approach provides approach ATC functions for Mc Entire.


They do.